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Extensive
new report - Click for New Report
Below are old reports
San Francisco Escorts, Massage & more! FREE Guide While I don't
report on other sexwork options in San Francisco since too costly for me being
so spoiled in Canada the website Lovings.com seems to have a good reputation
for honestly and is an extensive resource for many sex positive options especially
in the Bay area. So I have agreed to exchange links with them which
I rarely do. Our link is in their category "Sexuality Resources and Activism"
June 19 2007 update Market Street Cinema not no touch but
nothing like the past. Excellent current review "MSC Revisited" at
http://forum.myredbook.com/dcforum2/DCForumID11/15762.html
July 30 2005 San Francisco Market Street Cinema No Touch Rule
MSC went from more like a brothel which was often referred to as the "Cesspool"
to now the extreme of no touch rule if dancer doesn't have on her bra and
panties.
The dancers have been directed by management that there will be no more sex
on premises. Body contact between customers and dancers shall be limited to
when dancers are covered, both top and bottom. There is to be no physical
contact when the dancers are nude or semi nude. Management has been monitoring
any private shows and enforcing these new rules. This is confirmed by many
reports on San Francisco Red Book Review board where I posted my latest trip
reports to the clubs as well of course on sexwork.com
It is not clear exactly why but there have been FBI investigations concerning
the illegal sex trade and the local massage parlors. This now appears to have
spread to the strip clubs as well. Rumor has it that Deja Vu (MSC's parent
company) issued the directive possibly under pressure from federal officials
to clean up their San Francisco act. The new rules apply not only to Market
Street but also New Century Theatre.
The changes at Market Street Cinema represent the end of an era in America's
most sexually free city.
3/20/05-3/22/05
Back to San Francisco Strip Cubs Update
Well it's been a long time since I did my extensive San Francisco
strip club reviews on sexwork.com back in 1998. I have finally returned!
Having a business meeting on Monday here, I thought I'd take a couple days
and relax and update my strip clubs from my somewhat unusual prospective.
This report is meant more for travelers to San Francisco and newbies. It is
based on my huge "fetish" for high touch intimacy and not expensive "extras".
Anyone who has followed my Canadian reviews for Toronto area
http://www.sexworktoronto.com
, Hamilton and Niagara Falls area
http://www.sexworkniagarafalls.com
will realize how spoiled I am from my Canadian experiences and their full
contact nude laps for about $US15/song ($CDN20). Just for background, in Canada
prostitution has never been illegal, but restricted to private outcall with
nothing illegal about advertising for sex on web, newspapers, over phone etc.
The Canadian Supreme Court has ruled that full contact nude laps specifically
including breast touching does not violate the bawdy house (incalls) restrictions
as long as there is no "penetration or masturbation." For me, whose "fetish"
is good touch intimacy, caressing and massaging (professionally trained in
Esalen massage) that is perfect for Old Dave. If I want sex I will see an
escort for an hour in a bed, or for a hj those wonderful nude-reverse-release
parlors in Canada for under $US100/45 min or so. There are local licensing
bylaws that restrict touch at strip clubs in some cities (questionable if
challenged in Court), which is why I avoid clubs in the City of Toronto, but
I enjoy great clubs in Mississauga (where the Toronto airport is) and Brampton.
I also use to very much enjoy Phoenix clubs until the law changes in 1998.
I spoke before the City Council, was on radio talk shows and was very active
fighting the changes in the strip club laws (and making swing clubs illegal).But
while there was virtually no public support for the changes, the religious
right who helped write the law had their way after six public hearings that
were farces - since the City ignored all the input overwhelmingly against
the changes and implemented them anyway.
Saturday Night at Market Street Cinema (MSC)
After arriving in San Francisco and settling in at hotel, decided to walk
around a bit and gee, gosh, by golly, I would up in front or MSC. Now Stevi
Secret who has often featured at MSC is a friend in Phoenix who told me "DO
NOT go there at night on Saturday. They will have a lot of girls but a rough
crowd and heavy hustle...DON'T get hustled." Thanks Stevi for looking after
Old Dave, yet here I am 9pm Sat in front of MSC! OK I'm brave and I've been
hustled from Manila to Bangkok, so I think I can handle it!
I had been trying to follow what was going on via myredbook.com discussion
board. I knew that the back rooms were closed to install sprinklers since
the city is giving them a rough time. But having various forms of quickie
sex in a little cubical for an outrageous price (like the clubs in Nogales
Mexico but at a fraction of the price) isn't my interest (My Journey to Sin
City with Michelle included in
http://www.sexwork.com/dancers/SanFranExperiment.html
). I also report in a Sept 2004 update the ongoing vice cops busts of clubs
for their rather open sex but, that District Attorney Kamala Harris says she
is "not about to invest her office's time or money on anything as inconsequential
as lap dancing." San Francisco clubs continue to be among the most liberal
in the U.S. I had read the article about even though the back rooms were closed
dancers were finding all sorts of nocks and crannies to have various forms
of sex in, not always very private.
Walking in, I note the set up is about the same as I recall from 1998 although
now it is a $20 entrance fee (good all day, have hand stamped) and as soon
as you walked in the girls attack you.... for dances. The hustle Stevi warned
old Dave about. I wanted to walk the aisle in the back overlooking the main
seating area and stage, to the other side, just to observe and get the lay
of the land and then planned to sit and observe while open to being approached
in the main theater area. I politely turned down about 4 gals offering me
all sorts of "fun times" trying to get through the back aisle.
Sonny Wells
I had almost made it through the gauntlet of women, when I was approached
by "Sonny Wells", a bit older but pretty much my preferred body type, more
mature perhaps. Her approach while aggressive also after realizing I had my
"hustle" guard up changed to lets sit and talk and get to know each other
"won't cost you anything." She led me to the back rows of bench type seats
in the back (better for laps than theater seats below) and started asking
the usual questions and actually getting to know the me while sort of sitting
in my lap, (more like in Canada and pre98 Phoenix) rather than just hustling
for "fun."
When asked the right questions, I am very open about who I am and my interests
(laps not getting extras I'd go to an escort for etc). I mentioned I'm more
use to clubs in some Canadian cities and she says, she use to work at a club
in Hamilton Ontario. Hamilton Strip? I ask. Yes! Turns out she has danced
at my favorite Hamilton club. I jokingly ask if I can pay her in Canadian
money! That led to more good discussion and I mentioned Stevi Secret who Sonny
says she knows and also had mutual acquaintances in the industry as well as
swinging.
Then I had a very enjoyable lap dance and good interactions like I enjoy.
Lap dance prices instead of the $10 I report on from 1998 report are now $20
and to be topless is $40! My gosh in America we make breasts such a big sex
object vs most of the rest of the world where breasts aren't that big of a
deal, so the price goes up to "expose" and touch them. And the dancers aren't
even nude for $40 vs. $US15 full contact nude laps in Canada. One of the differences
from reading reports on redbook is that the dancers pay a nightly stage fee
of something like $300-400 depending on the night vs in Canada where they
keep all their lap dance fees and only pay about $40/night stage fee to the
club.
Anyway I enjoyed my interaction with Sonny which turned out the best experience
of the night. I overheard her later telling another dancer "he's a great guy"
which was nice to hear :)
Many Others
Not being willing to pay $40/ topless dance to many others I did just the
$20/lap option with a bunch of other dancers. They were all enjoyable but
not the intimacy response I enjoy from many in Canada. As I've often noted
in reports from meeting women from around the world, Americans growing up
in our sex negative culture (accept to sell products) just don't respond the
way in general, that European women respond in the way I enjoy far more than
just grinding laps and trying to get you off.
I was offered the gamete of choices from a hj for $20 to I assume far more
for $100, but I declined. One Asian dancer was quite cute and my body type,
Pearl, but not much of what I call intimacy response, but enjoyable. One gal
when I declined various offers with my saying that "I'm cheap" had a nice
response saying,"no your not chap, a $20 lap dance isn't being cheap". I thought
that was nice! She might have been a blonde dancer that is visiting here from
Iowa who I had a nice brief time with but I am not sure.
Another larger black gal I turned down (as I did quite a few that weren't
my preferred body type) seemed to not hear or want to take no for an answer
(maybe the hustle Stevi warned me about). She kept putting her very large
breasts into my hands, squishing down on them and trying her best to be seductive.
I finally gave in and got into it doing my usual massaging her back a bit
and things I like to do while dancing. I was concerned she seemed to just
keep on going and going after more than I thought was one song. I was concerned
about the expecting me to pay for lots of songs when I never actually agreed
to any and turned her down cold when she asked (was willing to pay for one).
But afterwards she said she was just enjoying how I was touching her and was
happy with the $20 I gave her.
Not Much Stage Dancing
I recall back in 1998 they had some good stage dancing including some dancers
that as part of their routine would come out in the audience and it was very
entertaining. But not much real dancing was going on stage while I was there.
Dancers have to get in the audience and hustle for dances since they have
such a high stage fee to pay. They did do a line up with all the girls on
stage at once which was good to see. They did have a feature dancer but whoever
she was I wasn't there at the right time.
Six Young Guys
There was a group of about six young guys that the dancers got from the
theater area up to the bench area near me. It seemed like they had never been
to such a place. I heard one ask, "you mean I can touch you?". The gals seemed
to enjoy breaking in these young lads. In response a person on the redbook
board says, "enjoy is right... Leading the Lambs to Slaughter..."
3 Days Left
You can spend money fast at the clubs. I enjoy even brief interactions
with a variety of dancers, so I will try and make the rounds of some of the
other clubs and try some day shifts if I can. I also have some "assignments
from Stevi to do if I can .
With the high parking fees and parking hassles in downtown SF this is my first
time not renting a car when I am traveling. The airport shuttle for $15 was
the same as one nights parking fee at the hotel. I will either walk or try
the cabs and see how I get around the downtown area. I usually avoid downtowns
when I can but have a business meeting Monday downtown and that is where most
of the liberal strip clubs are in San Francisco.
I am staying just a few blocks from MSC in a fairly nice hotel that has many
good tourist reviews at about $95/night but So of Market Street. The panhandlers
that some tourist reviews warned about didn't seem nearly as bad as some of
the reports, but I'm not on the streets real late at night either.
Crazy Horse Strip Club
Sunday Night
$20 Door fee. As expected from reading reviews, dancers generally more
attractive and no "hustling" for more than dances. Usual pricing $20 "bikini"
but some were more dressed (more than Bikini) than others and some in nice
very little bikini's. Just to have her topless another $20 and another $20
for nude. As discussed in my report from Market Street Cinema, stuck with
just $20 one lap since I enjoy sampling - looking for more the intimacy connection
I enjoy.
I was especially looking out for Renee, who was recommended I see. Didn't
see her by the description given. I did ask a dancer who said she wasn't working.
I barely got a chance after a dance (in separate room in back with bench type
seating) to jot some fast notes in my "little black book" and there was another
dancer standing by me with a "want a dance"? Once on a Canadian board someone
comment how great a memory I must have to recall so much details on so many
dancers. No, its not good memory, I take fast notes. In Canada I usually go
to the mens room to write notes, so its not so obvious what I'm doing that
dancers might wonder about. I also like to wash hands between every few dancers
- just good hygiene.
Few made any attempt at conversation and many didn't even introduce themselves
just ask if want a dance.
Tyla - nice scanty bikini, hard trim body, very sexual but a 0 on my 0 (none)
to 5 (greatest) intimacy response scale.
Justin - wow! First of all she approached me by standing behind me (I'm seating
in theater area) and starts nice shoulder massage. She must know how much
I like massage! Very much my type and perfect example of how I often "click"
so well another a dancer that enjoys the same intimacy I do. Very sweat, immediately
responded to the touch I enjoy giving, hugging closely, stroking, caressing,
all the things I enjoy with another intimacy loving attractive women. Soon
she was saying I had magic hands and how much she enjoyed the touch as I also
do massage on back, neck, etc. Of course she isn't American (few have much
intimacy response) but French of course. In fact had lived in Montreal. For
escorts French-Canadians are well known for their wonderful responsive intimacy.
Unfortunately most of the great French-Canadian women in Montreal don't speak
English. They have their own newspapers in French for escort ads and many
great French agencies. They also cost far less than most Canadians and seem
to very much enjoy their "work". We started a great discussion and as I often
say she talked about how Europeans enjoy so much the sensual side of sexuality
more than Americans. She lives now in Hawaii and comes to San Francisco to
work about every 3 weeks. After great discussion and my kind of intimate lap
dance, she asked I stay (not pay) another song just to have me do more massage
on her back which I enjoy doing. A 5+ on my intimacy scale.
Gloria - nice Latin (parents from Mexico) 3 on my intimacy scale.
Cream more mechanical about 2 on my intimacy scale and not bikini, had top
mostly covered more than breasts.
Mystery started out mechanical but by end was responding, commenting about
my hands and 3 on intimacy scale.
Peaches a bit heavy for my taste, but friendly approach and wonderful smile.
Only 1 on my intimacy scale.
Jordan - very sexual, very mechanical 0 on intimacy scale.
TJ - Has lived in Vancouver but seemed a bit immature and a 0 on my intimacy
scale.
I was impressed with the far less hustle factor than at MSC. No whining for
more dances or extras. Some asked if I wouldn't enjoy topless more, and I
usually say No, I'm too use to Canada. If they ask what that means as most
do, I mention I'm spoiled by $US15 full nude full contact laps. When one says
"But your now in San Fran" I reply, "that is why haven't been to San Francisco
for 7 years and I go to Canada 3-5 times a year!
At least in San Francisco you have the options that aren't available in Phoenix,
or most U.S. cities, its just far more expensive than what I'm willing to
pay for to be topless of nude.
Had an enjoyable time, finding one gem but enjoyed all the gals to a certain
extent.
Dave's Trek New Century, MBOT, MSC, CH Day Shifts
A rain trenched, feet hurting, long trekking Dave back at
hotel after quite a day of touring on foot San Francisco in the rain :( I
think on the web report (sexwork.com) I will use the animated shoes that walk
that I used for report from long day walking in Bangkok in my Thailand report.
Started day taking nice cab to 650 California Street for a business meeting.
Hey getting to New Century on Larkin didn't look that far and while I am very
out of shape enjoy walking around cities..if not TOO far. Well little did
I realize from the map that half the trek is uphill at what must be 45 degree
incline on California Street (some dancers later told me if I had gone So
a block or so the climb isn't as bad?). Old Dave had to catch his breath a
few minutes each block. I should have brought or bought an umbrella like most
sensible folks but I won't melt in the rain.
FINIALLY, soaked and pooped made it to New Century Theater about 1:30pm. Signs
say it opens at 11:30 am, lights on in front, door open and "open" sign. Go
in and they say there are closed since none of the dancers has shown up. :(
But should be there "soon".
OK, as much as I didn't think I wanted to try out MBOT its only a few blocks
away and didn't go there on my 1998 trip but zillions of years earlier. So
hoping MBOT is at least open so I can sit down, dry and thaw out from the
cold I decided to try it. Yes, open.
A side story, I kept running into this black dude on the street. I passed
him around California street, wind up at a light waiting to cross the street
a couple times and there he is again on Larkin. He jokingly (I think) asks
if I am following him. Hardly. Most of the street people just mumble incoherently
and I ignore but this guy was at least polite and fairly well dressed but
not pimp like. He is telling me something about something good, while I'm
waiting to cross the street half ignoring him - I think it was something about
where to get some good crack or something. I have no idea the terms he was
using and I quickly walked to get ahead of him once the light turned. I don't
think he was stalking me since he was ahead of me each time, I came up behind
him since I was walking faster. I think he went So before Larkin while I was
still taking the high road on California St to Larkin and then So to New Century.
We will meet yet again later!
MBOT (Mitchell Brothers O'Farrell Theatre for the new comer)
$30 door fee. Nice to sit in the strip club theater area and
dry out. Attractive nude dancers, but looking at bodies and stage dancing
isn't really my interest, and get bored quickly no matter how hot the dancer
(seen zillions of beautiful naked women over many years, I prefer the one-on-one
interactions). When arrived was about 25 guys but went down to about 10 over
the next 30 minutes (had to get back to work?). Other than the stage dancer
sometimes going up to men they seemed to know, there was no floor girls looking
for dances or anything.
There was no activity other than some guys sitting around with no girls in
the other rooms. I had remembered the place being larger with much more activity
from my last visit probably in the early 90's. The game seems to be the gals
that are free approach you in the hall area (outside the strip club section)
and then seduce you for private dances that start at .. $125 for the booth!
Yikes.
I did check out the porn theater which was open (2 guys in it) playing a very
old John Holmes porn flick. I sort of walked around a bit, noticed most of
the gals talking to guys in the hall were quite attractive but I had no interest
in a fast whatevertheydo in the booths at those prices. I was basically killing
some time before going back to try New Century and wondered back into the
porn flick theater. A gal from the hall followed me and started the usual
talk about how she could make me so happy etc. Agreed to do a $20 lap dance
with her. Was Ok, seductive, but a zero on my intimacy scale. Told me about
the wonderful make me happy options starting at $125 for the booth and then
consider other happy options. I passed.
Susans Massage & Black Dude
Left MBOT, confirming my non interest vs the other clubs and
had earlier noted the two Asian massage parlors Blue something on one side
of street (Larkin I think) and Susans on the other. Both have big gates and
you have to ring the bell and stand and wait till buzzed in. I was hesitant
from reviews but could also use a real massage at this point.
I am standing on the corner of the street just So of Susans when guess who
walks up. The black dude I met before. I guess he figured out I was more interested
in girls than drugs as he said something about (I think the Blue place) where
they all have AIDS, but nice Asian girls at Susans if I understood right.
And something about if I go to a place he points out up the street and see
a certain girl, I can get free tickets to the New Century. I do engage in
a bit of conversation he doesn't seem drunk or stoned and actually seems to
be trying to be helpful. He warns me the area is dangerous at night but he
is around to "watch my back". Of course he is looking for food money to buy
a hamburger, but asks actually in a very polite manner so I do give him $5.
99.9% of the time I totally ignore the street people and just walk fast by
them. Its not my job to solve the social problems of the streets by giving
out money which only encourages them to stay on the streets in my view.
A local on redbook message board comments:
the black dude in the nct area is almost always around there. we're
almost on a first name basis, but we don't know each otjer's names! he
always has coupons to give away for free entry to nct as long as you buy
a bottomless non-alcoholic drink. it's cheaper than paying normal admission.
those come from the nct website.
After he is gone I ring the bell at Susans and welcomed by older Asian
women. Shows me to small room with bath and mattress on the floor. After
being with so many young beautiful dancers decide she just isn't my type
even for regular massage and I know lots of extras will probably offered.
So say I just wanted to find the price ($50) but politely bailed.
New Century Theater Try Again
It is now a little after 2:30 so head back to NCT. There is a gal and
a couple mangers? male workers in the lobby. Tal tells me still no dancers
but should be some coming in another 30 minutes or so. I decide to give
up on NC if they have such a problem with dancers even showing up when
they advertise they are open at 11:30am. Its raining, feet hurt, so sort
of watching for cabs as I start the long trek down to Market Street in
the rain. The only cabs I spot have passengers in them. I make it to Golden
Gate and remember it kind of goes diagonally and cuts off some distance
so I head to 7th and Market that way. My hotel is a few blocks So of 7th
and Market.
But when I get to Market, heck I decide I want to check out MSC and CH
day shifts and I'm so close but if I go back to hotel will probably collapse
and not get out again. So I get to MSC
MSC Day Shift
Another $20 door fee, only about a dozen guys and quite a few dancers.
I'm immediately approached by I think Janette- heavy hustle do a $20 lap
and she talks me into a 2 for 1 $40 in back. So we go back into what use
to be the wall dance area. Very dark, tiny chairs to sit on. Gal next
to us is yelling "pervert" to the guy she had and tells him to go get
more money from the ATM machine to touch her breasts. Janette is OK but
low on intimacy scale and wants to have more fun with me, I pass.
Lori next as I've barely hit the seat back in the theater. She at least
sits and talks for awhile. Realizes I'm not a big spender and hesitant
so offers a $20 including topless. I enjoy but low intimacy response but
OK.
As soon as she leaves, another comes (can tell their desperate) but I
pass and decide its time to check out CH where I had a better time last
night without all the hustle for expensive options.
Crazy Horse Day Shift
I am starting to appreciate CH more and more for a far more laid back
non hustle atmosphere and in general more attractive dancers. About a
dozen guys only a few dancers around. Stayed here maybe two hours, lots
of time between approaches (would have wanted more vs every few seconds
at MSC). But many of the dancers seemed to know many of the guys that
came in and out, often just sitting with them in the theatre for a long
time, on their laps, one was holding hands (nice) etc. If I lived here
this could be a great hangout for me.
forgothername - nice but missed name and just average.
"Mystery" - Nicely dressed, I like her open back and body type.
Nice soft skin I enjoyed caressing, massaging etc but seemed distant,
almost no talk and zero intimacy reaction. Seemed to have a guard up against
anything intimate as I define it (nothing sexual). But enjoyed her nice
body.
"Paradise" - Another "wow". We really hit it off! She is like an
open book and loves to talk when she is comfortable with you it seemed.
She was born in Cebu, the Philippines so having been to Manila that opened
up lots of discussion even including neither of us now being able to understand
their English since so heavy tagalog accents. She left at age 5, lived
in Hawaii awhile speaks a little French, better than the Philippine tagalog
dialects. We talked and danced a long, long time on the $20 dance! But
her choice she was very talkative as we hit it off so well. Good intimacy
but was more the intellectual intimacy I also enjoy meeting dancers and
sharing as real people not just sex toys to play with! But she likes being
a sex toy also! She is the only dancer I told about my websites and "research"
trips I do. Asked how I got into it etc and told her quickly the long
story. She gave me a card for her website where she is as Jenna Lei at
http://xotix-asians.com/jennalei
with lots of pictures and other info. She is quite an interesting and
sexy lady.
GiGi - She is a bit larger than my ideal and turned her down once.
But then she was sitting in front of me and she turned around and started
talking with me and I couldn't resist that sweet face and smile. She quickly
warmed up to my touch and mentioned how she liked how I was massaging
her. About a 3 on my intimacy scale of 0-5.
Valitina - Small cute gal very friendly sitting next to me in theater
with my arms around her vs most gals just stand up by you with their "want
a dance". Lap dance quite sensual and wanted me to do more with her but
not the hard sell like at MSC. About a 3 on my intimacy scale.
Mystery (again) - Mystery sort of intrigued me as I watched her
approach guys for dances. I am still very attracted to her body, soft
skin and face. I wondered if she was all seduction but rather hard all
business in sessions as she seemed with me, vs wondering about the real
her if she may be very warm and genuine in real life relationships. To
my surprise she again approached me for another dance (had one earlier).
Hmm.. I accepted and enjoyed another lap. She is part Spanish and part
Persian. I probably got her up to a low 2 on my intimacy scale... hard
to describe.. but seemed to have a barrier on intimacy which I respected.
She did intrigue me and was certainly a mystery.
There were other dancers I would have liked to have a lap with but gave
up after awhile as they were sitting with guys they seemed to know or
others just never approached Old Dave. A very enjoyable time as it was
last night at CH.
Dave's Tues Night at Crazy Horse
The night that almost wasn't. I have a blister on a toe from all the
walking yesterday and going to dinner across the street was quite painful,
not to mention the rain. Gosh this is first trip in a long time I didn't
pack an umbrella (never needed it when I had it). And couldn't find any
stores that had them along Market Street near me. When I checked the forecast
before I left Phoenix rain was suppose to stop on Saturday and be party
cloudy most of this week. This is the rainiest partly cloudy I have seen,
not to mention the Tornado that hit So San Francisco just No of the airport
on Sunday.
But I doctor my toe a bit, bandage and extra sock as padding it feels
much better. Still raining but would love to visit CH one more time since
I've enjoyed it so much the last three visits. So for the sake of "research"
off I go the about 8 blocks in the rain to CH.
For those that don't like my book length travels reviews this may be another
Chapter so be warned. My however tell me in past reports from various
cities they enjoy my travelog vs just what girl went how far etc.
As folks may know that have followed my reviews around the world... I
am more interested in the interpersonal aspects getting to know dancers
while briefly as real people to interact with and not just as sex objects.
I have over the many years developed certain "intimacy" techniques that
I often but not always get great response from and I share my experiences
with them not to be "God's gift to women" but encourage guys to be more
open to good quality touch, to learn some massage skills that so many
dancers appreciate and I very much enjoy doing on dancers if I feel they
are receptive (virtually 100% are but react differently). I've offered
to do workshops to share ideas on my massage and intimacy techniques and
have done them for couples in Canada, at swing club conventions etc.,
over the years.
I've also learned that just because a dancer (or escort etc) isn't a high
non-sexual intimacy responder, doesn't mean she isn't "touched" by it.
My enjoyment in interactions isn't just sexual but reaching inside a person
via caring touch/massage and I enjoy their reaction to it. But sometimes
even if there is no outer response, there can be an inner response. For
example, a dancer (not on this trip) who seemed to be a total non responder,
who would rank a zero on my intimacy scale, once afterwards fell into
my arms crying telling me she had never been touched so tenderly even
by boyfriends etc. But I enjoy the interaction with women, regardless
of their response, and to some they may not like my type of touch, yet
I share this not to be bragging but to encourage guys to consider the
power of caring touch that is far different than the groping and grabbing
many dancers tell me they usually get from guys (not in San Francisco
of course but everyplace else!).
So with that sermon I will get to the blog type review. Soaked and cold
I make it to Crazy Horse - $25 door fee. A fair number of dancers and
customers for such a night. It is probably about 10:30 PM.
Soon Mystery greets me remembering me from Saturday night. Did
$20 lap but I'm thinking should have done $40 since has most of top covered
by shirt, not in a bikini outfit like some are. I think I could like her,
and as if often the case once a dancer knows you and you return, its much
more comfortable for both. About a 3 on my intimacy scale but I'm kicking
my self for not doing topless. Has me to do more massage on her back after
song time over. Even though I have resisted the high costs of topless
$40 vs my "spoiled use to $15 for full nude, full contact in Canada thinking
on my last night here would like to nicely caress some breasts! And won't
have another chance till I start my summer trips to Canada probably starting
in May since no such options exist in Phoenix. More to the Mystery story
still to come....
Tammy - Asian I keep thinking I've met before but the Asians are
all starting to look alike (and usually the most intimate). From Manila
and I mention I've enjoyed the clubs in Makati District of Manila and
Angeles City. I give in a go for topless even for two songs only had to
pay $20 for second still topless. Nice smaller breasts to nicely caress
and massage, just like Dave prefers. Very nice and 4 on my intimacy scale
(of 0=no response to 5= highest response). But a 5 on my sensual meter,
very sensual.
Cream - recognized me from Saturday night, very friendly. Sweeter
on this 2nd meeting, about a 3 on my intimacy scale, do topless nice perfect
for Dave about B breasts. Went on for extra song doing massage as I recall.
Jordan - dashes up to me when I'm in the theater seating very friendly,
remembering me from Sat night and just saying if want a dance let her
know. I think she was going on stage shortly so couldn't dance then. Very
bubbling outgoing and nice almost bikini outfit. (more story of Jordan
to come). I recall her very mechanical 0 rating from Saturday night but
she certainly is friendly tonight which I like as all guys would.
Alexis - from Texas, tall, nice soft perfect breasts I enjoy doing
topless (and rest of her). She comments on my soft hands. I often get
comments that I guess I'm lucky to have soft hands. Have no idea why other
than I don't do any manual labor other than lots of typing on a typewriter.
Mystery catches me... she spots me writing notes in my little black
book and sits next to me snuggling up asking "are you writing anything
about me...can I see?" Busted. I usually go hide in the mens room to make
notes but was trying to sneak a few notes in the theater without raising
having gals wonder what I'm doing. OK, I tell her I'm reviewing clubs
have a website etc and yes I say good things about her but has to read
it on my site or redbook (she seems to be Internet savvy). Have good discussion
and she's very friendly about it...snuggles and gives me nice kiss. I
always try and avoid being "busted" since then I don't know if dancers
know I am doing reviews they may not be their natural self. They might
either avoid me being scared of a review, or "kiss up" to me which wouldn't
result in perhaps an honest review.
I note that Mystery than sits with some of the other gals including Jordan.
I am wondering if she told them anything about me. I never do find out.
Jordan soon bounds over to me, and off we go to the VIP room. Even
though I had her as mechanical and 0 on intimacy scale Saturday night
her friendliness and nice body got to me and did topless. I can sense
she enjoys doing all sorts of positions in front of you and Ok with limited
touch but at one point gently moves my hands away when I try and nicely
caress her breasts. Most other dancers even if just "bikini" dance would
grab my hands and plop them on their breasts! Gee, I must be losing my
touch since in Canada I often get such good response to my soft gentle
breast massaging and caressing. But I take the hint and don't venture
there again. But she was enjoyable and other touch she seemed fine with.
At some point I find out what the cost is for the private booths off the
VIP room. Seems like I read it before on redbook but its $80 for 2 topless
songs and $100 for 3 (I think I got that right or was one of them for
nude?)
Now there is a lull in my activity and I'm noting a gal and a couple enjoying
the show. Place is obviously very couple friendly. And the dancers seem
very friendly with each other and supportive.
I didn't realize it from Saturday but Paradise who I enjoyed is
a feature dancer with her friend Didi who she had mentioned to
me Sat but wasn't there that night. Paradise and Didi do a nice routine
on stage together. As they are dancing Olivia offers me a dance. I know
she has had good reviews and want to accept but I'm curious to see Paradise's
dance routine and tell her I'd love to but after their dance. Unfortunately
she doesn't come back again and don't see her working the floor again.
After Paradise/Didi dance (I think Paradise spots me and is smiling at
me), Jordan enthusiastically sites down beside me and starts a conversation
asking all sorts of questions and is very open about herself (has danced
for over a year including in Sacramento and City of Industry Rhino (where
I've been) and here at CH for just 3 weeks. She is cuddled next to me
with my arm around her and her hand on my leg in nice affectionate way.
Interesting the mixed messages vs the dance a bit non intimate. We talk
about a lot of things, and finally I ask her about how she seemed uncomfortable
with my breast caressing. She apologized saying she has always been shy
about her breasts even tends to hide them when with her boyfriend, just
always has been shy about them. Also says she rarely does topless so isn't
use to it (my luck I started doing mostly topless tonight). I appreciated
openness and honestly. Again reminded me of the American women vs most
foreign women huge difference in sensual/intimacy response I have observed
consistently so many times.
Later I notice her bubbling personality interacting with others, even
giving a dancer a big hug as she was leaving to go home (think she was
new didn't notice who in her street clothing). Jordan sort of reminded
me of "our" Jordan K in Phoenix is a great dynamic escort and they even
look a bit alike. In VIP room I also noted her with the couple (both man
and women) I guess showing them what goes on. Perhaps the gal was considering
being a dancer and checking it out with her boyfriend.
On stage Mystery and R? (well reviewed) also did a stage show together
and the couple was in front row interacting with the dancers especially
the women it seemed.
Tyra - I almost turned her down remembering her 0 on my intimacy
scale from Saturday night but I am attracted to her sleek body in bikini
outfit so I go all out and do topless. Nice body, although breasts a bit
too large for my tastes but she is nice even though only moved up to about
a 1 on my intimacy scale!
A couple times during the rest of the evening Jordan returns and sits
next to me for a few minutes. I keep wondering does she or doesn't she..
either like me.. or was told my Mystery I do reviews and wanting to be
friendly. But she is friendly with everyone but was curious the special
interest she seemed to take with me after the two rather mechanical dance
sessions . But she also had greeted me so warmly much earlier before Mystery
knew I did reviews on a website. This will remain a mystery. Regardless
she is very nice.
Jackie from Thailand - Very nice 5 on intimacy scale. Did a couple
dances with her. Watches time very closely. Most dancers seemed to go
over one song but she was very punctual like she had a built in meter
running. Yet, very nice.
Its now a bit after 1am, they close at 2 but quite a few dancers are leaving
and the audience is down to about 10. I would have liked to have danced
with Olivia, R?, Dedi and Paradise but they seemed to have disappeared.
I did exchange smiles with Paradise a few times as we crossed paths when
I was with another dancer heading for the VIP room or in the VIP, but
never when both of us were available.
Still raining lightly as I plod back to my hotel. While the weather was
cold and rainy the 4 days here, and I would have liked to get to more
clubs I very much enjoyed my visit. I will probably return again in 7
years :( and appreciate how great it is in some cities in Canada with
same kind of wonderful gals (actually more foreign gals, lots of Eastern
European who are almost all so wonderfully sensual and intimacy responsive)
and far lower costs ($US15/uncut long songs for naked full contact). But
I did enjoy the expensive experience in San Francisco since few places
in the U.S. with the same options at any cost.
September 2004
Lap Dancing - No Wasting Police resources on sex San Francisco Strip Clubs
Highlights shared with full credit
Source: COMES NATURALLY #151 by David Steinberg
District Attorney Kamala Harris said she is " not about to invest her
office's time or money on anything as inconsequential as lap dancing."
This is related to:
The May 5 2004 bust where , three undercover vice squad officers walked
into San Francisco's the nearly empty New Century lap-dancing theater
and were, they say, all openly and unapologetically solicited for sex
almost before their eyes had adjusted to the darkness. On May 18, an identical
scenario unfolded at the Market Street Cinema. Nine dancers and three
club managers were arrested during the two raids. The dancers were charged
with prostitution, the managers with "keeping a house of ill repute."
While Harris is not going so far as to publicly support decriminalization
of prostitution in San Francisco, she has said for the record that 1)
her primary concern about the lap-dancing theaters is the safety of the
women who work there, not the sexual nature of their work, and 2) she
intends to "prioritize murders, rapes, and narcotics crimes higher than
whether people are paying for consensual sex in the theaters' private
booths."
The decision reflects a largely unpublicized consensus among politicians,
neighborhood groups, strip club owners, dancers, and customers on the
value of private sexual entertainment to San Francisco. The decision also
has the potential to influence the policies of other cities as they craft
their own responses to this latest addition to the American sex-entertainment
palette.
The entire outstanding article that goes into detail of the history of
San Francisco strip clubs the lawsuits by dancers and the various dancers
position (forced to do sex acts to pay the high stage fees vs. enjoying
the opportunity to provide sexual services) is at
Sept 2004
SF Strip Club Update
My favorite ideas from the rest of the article include:
Supporting prostitution more generally as a legitimate sexual activity
worthy of decriminalization.
Lap-dancing clubs are places not where women are forced into prostitution
but "These women are more like athletes at the top of their game than
helpless victims,"
"We're not on the streets..., We're provided with an enclosed area, private
booths, a safe work environment, security guards, panic buttons, and managers
who are willing to work with us on areas of disagreement....It's not like
being in a hotel room with doors and locks. We have panic buttons that
light up in the manager's office when we push them. One time, I hit the
panic button by mistake, and within seconds there were four security guards
and a manager at my booth to find out what was wrong. Once guys are in
the private rooms, they're in our space, our office. If we're not comfortable
with something, we just walk out of the room."
Gennifer Hirano, who holds what she calls a "moderate stripper perspective,"
feels that police intervention in lap-dancing clubs is wrong, no matter
how much sexual activity is going on. "I was horrified that women were
arrested for prostitution at the clubs," she says. "It always feels like
an invasion when institutionalized authority is brought in."
Hirano, who did not engage in sexual activity when she was working at
the clubs, confesses that she initially had negative feelings about dancers
who did sex work there. "I didn't want to have anything to do with any
woman who was doing more than dance. I didn't understand why you would
do that, when you can just sit on a guy's lap, touch his hair, and make
good money. I used to think all sex workers were dysfunctional, that the
best thing was for everyone to get out of sex work as soon as possible,
that the more sex work you did, the more fucked up you were inside. I
saw sex work as an addiction. I understand it differently now. Everyone
has their own limits and boundaries, and they're all valid. "I had to
address my internalized stigma ..."We have internalized so much social
stigma associated with sex work, even as strippers. Once I realized where
all this anger and hatred was coming from, I became proud of myself instead
of hating myself. Sex work is a wonderful way to survive. It's all about
asserting control and power. Women have always known how to use their
bodies for survival. Learning how to marry a rich man is nothing more
than nuclear-family-model sex work."
A poll of San Franciscans by the David Binder Research Group, commissioned
by the Sex Worker Outreach Project last month, showed "overwhelming support"
for decriminalization of prostitution in the city, according to Project
coordinator Robyn Few. Just as Gavin Newsom's decision to give same-sex
marriage the blessing of City Hall catapulted public awareness of that
issue to a broad new plateau, so has Kamala Harris' stance regarding arrests
for sexual activity in lap-dancing clubs dramatically shifted the framework
for public discussion of sex work in San Francisco. Whatever happens next
will send legal, cultural, and political shock waves far beyond the boundaries
of the sexually adventurous City by the Bay.
Source: COMES NATURALLY #151 by David Steinberg
Full much larger article at
Sept 2004
SF Strip Club Update
May 2003 -
Great overview of Market
Street Cinema from Stevi Secret, porn star and frequent featured dancer
at MSC.
Sorry the rest of this report is so old. However many guys
ask me about some of my high touch intimate yet non-sexual dance techniques.
This report is where I tried to describe in great detail my techniques.
The report was one of my first, back in 1998 so it is not laid out well
as my later reports are, but may still be worthwhile reading for those
interested in caring touch techniques I enjoy with dancers.
Lap Dancing Hints for Men who seek to share more good touch intimacy with
dancers
My May 26, 1998 San Francisco Experiment by Dave in Phoenix
Note For Some Good and Very Bad Reactions to this review see end of report.
For those that haven't seen previous posts of my particular odd interests
there are discussed at length at
http://sexwork.com/dancers/stripclubs.html
"The Strip/Nude Dance Club Scene A Different Perspective - How To Enjoy
High - Touch, Non-Sexual Intimacy, Not Just Bodies As Sex Objects
Simply stated I have virtually zero interest in being teased by sexy bodies
on a stage or gyrating pelvic thrusts of a lap dance. However, I enjoy
taming a dancer and getting a favorable reaction to what I call "loving
touch". Over the years I have become very popular at two Phoenix nude
clubs and it is certainly not for any money. I have never tipped a dancer
and in Phoenix the dancer only gets $3-$4 from a $20-25 lap dance. I recommend
generous tipping by others but I do it more as a social experiment where
I am in a more of a "love" mode more than a "sex" mode. At some of the
Phoenix clubs hostesses often have to take a waiting list of dancers that
want to be with me. I share many of my experiences in Phoenix clubs at
http://www.sexwork.com/dancers/phxnudeclubs.html
My point is to share ideas for other men who might enjoy tips of sharing
good touch with dancers and treating them with loving tenderness as a
person and not just as a sex object to get stimulated by. The response
to from like-minded men has been fabulous which has encouraged me to share
my ideas more broadly.
In the alt.sex.strip-club newsgroup I got involved in some discussions
of "Stuff dancers Like" and was surprised at the hostile attitude of some
men who were apparently insecure and made fun of my ideas. Being a macho
stud is much more in than being interest in loving intimate but non-sexual
touch for some men. There is also a very active group of great guys from
San Francisco that discuss the many great clubs there who also seemed
to ridicule my ideas.
Therefore, as an experiment I decided to go to San Francisco and with
dancers I never had met to try some of my intimacy techniques and see
what results could be had. I was pleasantly surprised by the very favorable
results, which I will describe in detail in this report. I will probably
be flamed by the macho studs but that is OK, since I know there are men
that will appreciate these ideas to have more meaningful relationships
with dancers that just to be turned on sexually or enjoying their sexy
dances viewing them as sex objects. There is nothing wrong with this common
male macho attitude.
Some of you men are much better intimate loving toucher's than I am I'm
sure. Many of you also have the advantage of being younger and more attractive
than I am. I'm twice the age of most of the dancers, graying with a slightly
paunchy midriff. I don't offer much money or physical attractiveness.
I offer something very different and it's enjoyable to see what reactions
I get from various dancers. I also enjoy finding dancers that are naturally
more intimate probably with most men. My interest in relating to dancers
in not any better than anyone else's. It is simply an alternative I encourage
men to learn if they want more intimate, high-touch non-sexual interactions
with some wonderful attractive women.
Off To San Francisco
I arrive in San Fran to experiment with dancers on Memorial Day and attend
a business meeting on Tuesday. I had outstanding interactions with some
dancers at both Market Street Cinema (MSC) and Crazy Horse (CH). I had
not nearly as good of results at New Century Theatre (NC) with one outstanding
exception. On Monday I rotated between MSC and CH meeting many dancers
on both the day and evening shift. Even though it was a holiday there
were a large number of dancers and customers at MSC and CH. On Tuesday
afternoon after my meeting and in the evening I met many dancers at NC.
Market Street Cinema
Only having been to Mitchell Bros 10 years ago, I didn't know quite what
to expect when I arrived. As I stood in back getting familiar with the
scene Mimi delightfully approached me for a $20 wall dance. I had heard
about these but never had done one so I did with Mimi. Mimi was great
but it confirmed for me that I was much more interested in $10 laps where
I could actually do more of my touch technique than I could with wall
dancing. Later Mimi also did a very nice lap dance with me when I returned
at night. The story gets much more interesting however, as I get more
use to the routine and meet many more dancers.
Before going into specific details of my experiences at MSC it may be
helpful if I share my classification of dancers and describe as best I
can some of my favorite techniques with different typical lap dance positions.
Any man can learn these techniques or you may have others you prefer that
our just as nice.
Classification of lap dancers
I classify dancers and women in general into three categories. The first
is those only comfortable with emotionally detached mechanical interaction
who save any deeper connection for their "real" relationships. The second
type, which I very much enjoy, are those that are naturally good at high-touch
intimacy and sensuality which is so much more than groping at your crotch
or fiddling with your nipples! This second type is wonderfully more intimate
with most customers. The third type of dancer I found are those with which
I really a strong connection with who not only may have been naturally
intimate but expressed their delight at my techniques often wanting to
know much more about me. I never initiated any verbal discussion but just
"talked" with my hands unless they started asking about where I leaned
such good techniques etc. This last group stayed with me a much longer
than the normal time and seemed genuinely interested in me because of
my touch techniques in our brief time together. So the categories are
mechanical, naturally intimate and dancers I seem to have a strong connection
with.
Description of my Touch Techniques
Most dancers start out thinking you want a high pelvic movement lap for
sexual stimulation and usually start off this way. Without saying a word
but by communicating only with my touch about 80% of the time I can "tame"
the wild gyrating dancer into a tender pussy cat (no pun intended for
pussy) often complete with "purring" sounds of enjoyment.
Occasionally the dancer will ask what I like before she begins. I say
I'm not into gyrating pelvises but I'm more of a caresser and cuddler.
I believe every dancer I said this to responded with something like "that's
what I prefer too" and some add "but most men want more wild laps."
As in my experience in Phoenix many dancers commented how they wish their
boyfriends would touch them like I do. So the ideas I share are even more
appropriate for girlfriends and wives. But lap dancers offer a way to
experiment with touch and have some good human soul-to-soul interaction
with some responsive dancers. But other dancers are only comfortable being
more mechanical and not having any real connection with their customers.
I have developed non-sexual touch techniques for the 3 basic positions
that lap dancers typically are in during laps realizing the physical limitations
of this being done on a theatre seat in public.
Position #1 - Butt in your lap with back to you or the reverse
variation facing you straddling your legs.
Position #2 - The cuddle position where the dancer is sitting
sideways in your lap.
Position #3 - Lying on her back in your lap. This is my favorite
position which is usually done by more experienced dancers who also
trust you since it is probably the most vulnerable position for them
to be in.
Position #4 (Not done in San Fran and can't do in a chair.
But enjoy doing on a bench or wider seat like at Blue Moon in Phoenix)
Dancer lays down on me face down her body over my lap. I love doing
slow, as deep as the dancer likes, massage into the various good pressure
points along the back, spine, butt and upper legs, combined with tender
soft stokes all over her body with gentle cuddles and hugs tossed in.
Any man can learn to do this, and it is very much enjoyed by dancers.
Let me also be clear that nothing I do is genitally sexual (with one
slight modification of one dancer who insisted with her hands, which
I'll discuss later). I'm not interest in a feel and never enter the
vagina at clubs nor touch breasts unless the dancer is topless and I'm
invited to. In non-club situations I also teach G-spot massage to couples
and enjoy sharing with women who want me to.
position #1
In position #1 I basically am limited to doing complete back massage
alternating with light caring strokes of the back, sides and outer legs.
15 years ago I took professional Esalen massage classes for the sole
purpose of learning how to provide women good physical as well as emotionally
caring massage. The basic idea of Esalen massage is to combine good
physical kneading with more loving strokes that are intended to relate
to the emotions and spirit as well as the physical body. I teach massage
workshops for couples, have helped sexual abuse victims by replacing
bad touch experiences with good etc. It is sensual but totally non-sexual.
See http://www.sexwork.com/subcontents/esalen.html
- Esalen Massage It's So Nice To Be Kneaded if you want to learn more.
My massage is usually very slow and working as deep as I am feeling
the women wants. I can feel her tight spots and often I get comments
like "how did you know I was so tight there?" I have special techniques
for the neck, shoulders, along the traps and down the spine. Many women
also have lower back tightness but you have to know where to apply pressure
and where not to go too deep. I also enjoy the usually very favorable
reaction to slowly massaging the primordial tail area. This is very
sensual for the women whether she has clothes on or not. It is where
the sexual nerve endings from the vaginal area connect to the lower
spine and can be very sensual/sexually stimulating. Since few women
have experienced it before, I often get interesting reactions. Men get
a similar sensation. I also enjoy doing it in a stand up hug and the
women usually melts into my arms.
The problem with position #1 is that the dancer may enjoy it so much
so often is in a trance and I prefer she not just be stuck in this position
but also move on to the other typical positions - since I have different
treats in store for her if she does!
While I usually get very good response and verbal comments, on rare
occasions I can't tell for sure if she is really enjoying it or not
since I'm not getting any response verbally or from body language. With
one dancer (Egyptian) she really wanted me to go much deeper than I
usually do and was in sort of this trance. With another young dancer
(forgot name) at MSC I wasn't getting any response at all other than
she kept up her pelvic grind staying in position #1 without any interruption
the entire time. I wasn't sure if she was really liking the touch or
not. But at the end she looked at me in the eyes and said, "I want you
to know I really appreciated that." To me that comment is much more
satisfying to me than being sexually stimulating by a naked body or
grinding pelvis.
But I enjoy the other positions also. Alleysa had a very tight neck
but also did the other positions as well.
I'm still not clear how long a $10 lap is supposed to last. The few
mechanical dancers seemed to be for one song or so but most of the dancers
stayed for two or three. I suspect the guideline is one song but it
is really up to the dancer.
In the reverse position #1 facing towards me I also enjoy doing some
pectoral massage. This provides some nice breast stimulation without
touching the breasts themselves or having to be topless. I combine this
with light soft touches above the breasts that most dancers seem to
like
In topless situation I have some other breast techniques far more enjoyable
to many dancers than the typical groping and grabbing most dancers experience.
Many dancers tell me I should teach their boyfriends good breast techniques.
Cuddle Position #2 Experiences at MSC
Some dancers who are more naturally intimate enjoy this position and
I provide nice tender squeezes and strokes. Ariel at MSC wins my award
for the best cuddler but it was a very close contest since others were
very good also. The Chinese dancer gengen is probably the most sensual
dancer but she is in a category all by herself. More on gengen later.
I suspect all the good cuddlers are naturally intimate and do this with
most all men.
Lying in Lap Face Up Position #3
I suspect this is part of the standard routine for many dancers and
next to being massaged it seems to keep dancers with me the longest
time enjoying it. The techniques are easier to do than explain but involve
hand caresses, slow soft body strokes, light pectoral strokes, along
arms etc. My favorite technique is face work. I have sort of a face
fetish which about 75% of dancers enjoy. If I'm not getting immediate
positive feedback by body language or.. purring…or "oh yes", I try and
always ask if they enjoy having their face caressed. About 25% do not
like it since they are sensitive and face may break out etc. But for
many stroking the face, massaging temples, stroking hair, earlobes and
neck is very enjoyable to many women.
At MSC it was so dark and dancers were coming at me for $10 laps so
fast I was bad at recording in my little notepad or remembering names.
I tried to record those I enjoyed the most but missed some. But include
in those I especially enjoyed are Mimi, -gengen, Ariel, Alleysa, Egyptian,
Koola, Aurora, Lana, Nancy and wonderful Michelle in Sin City (more
on that later). One of those may have been at Crazy Horse instead of
MSC my notes are not that clear. I'll get to CH later.
gengen A Special Class
gengen was a special experience. I didn't pay much attention
to the stage dancing since that was really not my interest. But Chi-Chi
got my attention by her freedom of expression and enthusiasm in her
stage dancing. She seemed to very much enjoy her nudity. Her dance expressed
"freedom for the bonds of our sexual/nude hang-ups which is so nice
to see. I particularly liked how she seemed to enjoy going into the
audience and lie her nude body in customer's laps. She also seemed to
have the happiest smile in the "line up" of dancers when introduced.
gengen also wins my award for the most sensual $10 lap dance and she
also stayed a long time. I'm sure she does this with all customers,
she seems to be so naturally intimate, but she really knew how to do
a sensual lap. No she didn't grab my penis or crotch but she knew how
to use her body against mine (not just gyrating pelvic thrusts that
most dancers do) for great sensuality. With most other dancers other
than the position they choose, I was sort of in control in the sense
that I knew what to do with may hands and they mostly relaxed (after
I tamed a few) and enjoyed it, like I want them to. But with gengen
it was more we both knew how to be sensual and it was more a mutual
dance with her mostly in control but responding very favorably to my
response back. She would be great for shy men that want a good sensual
experience. She was really good in both the cuddle position and position
#3. She also kept gently moving my hand down to her vaginal area. I
didn't think you were suppose to do that in the public area (or anywhere
else) so I hesitated but she kept gently guiding my hand down there.
I got the message that she wanted her outer vagina area massaged so
I obliged! She seemed to obviously enjoy by her body movements. I never
do this unless the dancer is directing me to do so.
In general, Asians are so wonderfully free from our cultural and religious
hang-ups over sexuality. I've found many Asians are far more skilled
at sensuality than most American women.
This was actually my 2nd $10 lap with gengen . She and two other dancers
worked a split or overlapping shift and they came to me for laps on
both the day and night shift.
My Journey to Sin City with Michelle
Most dancers gave me the big pitch to spend lots more money to simply
have them nude. A few told me their $100 specials were guaranteed to
make me cum. But at that price it doesn't make sense to me to get a
hand job. For the same or less cost you could go to one of the many
Asian massage places and have maybe a 45 minute massage with hand release
or more. Or, for $150-$200 could spend an hour naked in bed with a women
enjoying sensuality and full service. So $100 for a fast hand release
didn't seem that good of a deal. I was satisfied with less sexual but
more good touch $10 laps with a wide variety of dancers.
But for the sake of research - before I left I did pay the separate
fee for "behind the stage" Sin City. I enjoyed a $60 nude session with
Michelle. But other than being able to do my breast techniques which
she said she enjoyed, it was basically the same thing I did in the $10
laps. Just being nude is no big deal with me since I'm so use to nudity
with women. One advantage was that it was easier to talk without the
blasting of the loud music in the theater where the only practical communications
was mostly with my hands. Michelle discussed with me how few men have
good touch and intimacy skills. The timing of her comments was perfect
as in the next booth another dancer yelled four different times "you
can't do that!" She then ended the session with the creep and kicked
him out. We could hear the customer yelling all the way down the hall
demanding his money back. They managers refused and told him to leave
or they would call the police. Yes the dancers have to deal with all
sorts of folks from nice men like you guys to the creeps that just want
to grope.
On To CRAZY HORSE a few blocks away on Market
In some ways I preferred Crazy Horse even though it was twice the
price it was worth it with some of the dancers. The layout is a long
narrow theatre area. Since I had no interest in just staring at naked
women, I sat on the bench in the back where I easily attracted many
dancers.
I did $20 laps in the VIP room. With bench seating, instead of chairs
it was easier to be in different positions. Most dancers were naturally
intimate not just mechanical. Often the older dancers were more sensual.
Included in my list of favorite dancers were Calypso, Tiran, and especially
Simone and Brooke. I know I missed at least one other nice intimate
dancer and exclude those that were just mechanical. With two of the
dancers they insisted …almost on being topless as they started to enjoy
my touch. Normally they charge another $20 for topless but they did
it in the $20 lap simply because they liked my touch and I wasn't motivated
to pay $20 just for topless.
An advantage of the VIP room is you can have good conversation without
the blare of the music. I had some very good discussions of intimacy
issues when some of the dancers started to ask questions of me in response
to my touch. The usual wish to have boyfriends better at touch and how
few customers have a clue. However, I was interested that one dancer
said about 50 percent of customers are very nice often just want someone
to talk with and aren't the macho or groping and grabbing type. This
confirmed my ideal that because there are so many clubs for more intimate
touch, and with the much more mature attitude towards sexuality in San
Francisco vs. most other U.S. cities that it made sense that most guys
were less desperate for sexual stimulation vs. in the Phoenix clubs
where much less is typically available.
Again I wasn't clear how long the $20 VIP room laps were suppose to
last. With two dancers they were with me about 30 minutes. With more
mechanical dancers it seemed to be a two or three song routine. Just
like at MSC it seems to be somewhat at the dancer's discretion. One
dancers fantasy is to be with two men but her boyfriend would be too
jealous so it must remain just a fantasy.
All these experiences at MSC and CH occurred on Monday Memorial Day,
1998 afternoon and evening. I was busy! Monday night I stayed at the
Travel Lodge behind Mitchell Brothers. I never went to MB as I was there
10 years ago and for the high entry fee you get basically more exhibitionism
with two women together, watching women masturbate etc none of which
I have any interest in. The room at Travel Lodge was very small and
noisy at $70/night + tax. On Tuesday I moved to the Days Inn next to
the New Century Theater where the room was twice as large, King bed
instead of single, clean and quiet. Was $90/night + tax.
The New Century Theater
Checked out the day shift Tuesday afternoon after my business meeting
at Sir Francis Drake. I could hardly believed the cost of $24 to park
for 3 hours at the fancy hotel!
All the dancers with one fabulous exception were more the mechanical
types and the $20 laps were twice the price I was paying at MSC. Dancers
enjoyed my massage and touch but mostly were less responsive and less
intimate than at either MSC or CH. They mostly only used position #1.
There was also much more high pressure for nude laps upstairs. There
were only a few customers and 8-10 dancers.
One cute blond works here 2 weeks at a time but lives in Los Angeles.
She much prefers the San Fran clubs since she can do much more. Once
she realized she couldn't get me upstairs we had a nice discussion in
the cuddle position. But she wasn't very intimate compared to what I
experienced at MSC or CH, probably since I was so cheap…but still paying
twice the price vs. MSC.
BUT THEN…..one of the best experiences of all was with Jxxxxx. I'm not
giving complete name for a little privacy and not wanting her to get
in trouble for how much time she spent with me. Jxxx was a perfect example
of taming the tiger into a pussycat and moving to great intimacy and
then meaningful discussion. She started out so wild her breasts knocked
my glasses off! But with my touch I quickly tamed her..almost too much.
She enjoyed my massage in position #1 and moved to position #3 for a
long, long, long, time. I can enjoy giving sensual caring touch to a
woman for hours but I was concerned she might get in trouble for staying
so long. I used all my position 3 techniques over and over again. She
was not particularly responsive but seemed to be sort of in a blissful
trance. But I really didn't know how she was feeling except she kept
in position #3. She seemed to enjoy by face cuddling etc. At times I
wondered if she had fallen asleep but an occasional squeeze of her hand
was nicely returned so I knew she was alive!
After 4 different dancers doing three songs each she came out of her
blissful trance and said "that was really nice". Then for two more dancers'
three songs each we had a wonderful discussion of personal issues until
she had to go to stage dance. She said if I stuck around she would like
to talk to me more. She seemed too young to have had so much experience
but she used to work at Mitchell Bros, then left the city and worked
in New York and New Orleans and now returned working at NC until she
could return to Mitchell Bros.
I carry with me some envelopes with brochures about both my web sites
sexwork.com and libchrist. com in case I meet someone where I get into
a discussion of these issues and the dancer seems genuinely interested.
I gave her one, which she seemed very interested in. The only other
dancer I gave an envelope to was on at CH.
While Jxxx was dancing a couple more dancers approached me mostly with
their pitch to go upstairs. I did a couple more laps only but they were
quite mechanical. I then left since I had primed the San Francisco economy
far more than I had planned with so many laps my experiment, while very
enjoyable had become very expensive.
New Century Night Shift
Since my research project had become so expensive I almost decided not
to spend any more money on it. But since the NC was next door to my
hotel I did decide to check out the night shift. I also wanted to test
whether or not I could get $10 laps that I did so well with at MSC with
never a complaint about what I offered. I only assumed the laps were
$20 since I asked a dancer when I first came in. But she knew I was
new and may have quoted the preferred higher fee. To my surprise the
first two dancers that approached me took my $10 deal. Both said how
much they liked my massage but I didn't have any real intimacy connection
with them. Then 2 others turned down my "I'm real cheap and only do
$10 laps" offer.
Then came Precious!
Without a word Precious snuggled into my lap in the cuddle position
and I started by thing. She seemed to enjoy and was very sensual in
response. I admired her for her sales tactic - "give and hopefully money
will be given onto you". She was doing a better preview lap for free
then many others had done for $10-$20.
At the end of a full song she asked the usual "would you like some more
company?" I said my usual "maybe but I'm cheap and only do $10 laps-
which you really have already done". I was about to give her $10 for
the "preview" but she insisted on doing another full round for $10.
Obviously I didn't object. She was very nice.
Then she asked if I wanted more and I gave my usual response of "Your
very nice but I'm only good for one and that has nothing to do with
my sexuality". She said "That's fine" gave me a nice hug and was about
to leave when I asked her to tell me more about the costs and benefits
of the upstairs playroom. She said it was $40 for topless and $60 nude.
For the sake of research I did a $40 round.
I'm glad I did! It was very nice. In fact I was hooked and wished I
had done one with Jxxxx from the day shift. I also went to the playroom
with Milan who just started at NC but was not at all shy! She has an
interesting racial mix - African American, Cuban and American Indian.
She is in college studying multi-cultural affairs and wants to work
with Japanese. I also played with Missy and Nicole. They all did all
three positions nicely, seemed to enjoy my touch but no real special
intimate connections.
Again not knowing how much time they are suppose to spend I noted that
Precious had spent about twice the amount of time in the playpen with
me as the others. I suspect she really does enjoy the interaction with
all men, not anything that special about me.
End Of Research Study
I had considered going to some of the North Beach clubs as well as Chez
Paris but decided I had blown my budget too much already and had lots
of data! I also considered going back to visit MSC and CH on Wednesday
to see some of the dancers I enjoyed so much. I even thought of asking
some if they new about the ASSC group. If so I might suggest they pass
on that they had met me and share any reactions. I would have told them
how my research was somewhat based on the skepticism of a few of my
success having such good intimacy with some dancers. But for financial
reasons I decided not to and the fact I don't really have to prove anything
to anyone. I simply enjoy what I do and believe other men might enjoy
some of my touch ideas. After I started to have such good response from
some dancers when they asked my name I said slowly "Dave from Phoenix"
so they might remember me from the zillions of other men they meet each
night in case some of you want to ask about me.
Another reason for not revisiting some of the dancers is that it is
frustrating for me to make some good connections when I don't live in
San Francisco. It's great in Phoenix since I'm friends with many dancers
I've gotten to know over time although you can't do as much in the Phoenix
Clubs as in San Fran. I prefer the potential for more long-term relationships
as a customer instead of the "one-night stands" when I'm out of town!
We have lots of strip clubs in Phoenix but most are only for "gawking".
Two however offer the type of high-touch intimacy I enjoy. But it is
technically not legal in Phoenix which is a much more a sexually hung-up
city that San Fran. Which is why I enjoyed San Fran in the 1980s when
I attended about a dozen of Stan Dale, Human Awareness Institute, Love
Sex and Intimacy workshops at Harbin. One dancer I met enjoys nudity
and even has been to Harbin! (North of wine country just beyond Mt Helena,
NE of San Fran). This is were I began to enjoy intimacy and more sensual
sexuality so much. If interested in more info see:
http://www.libchrist.com/background/hai.html
Point of All of This
I encourage men to be more aware of women's desire for better touch
and intimacy skills from men. Many dancers in San Fran tell me exactly
the same as dancers in Phoenix: How few men have good touch/sensual
skills that women so much enjoy. I'm sure most of you are the exception.
It is the same thing that wives tell me in Liberated Christian workshops
about wishing that their husbands were more intimate. But we don't train
in our culture good touch/intimacy skills and its not something that
is just natural for most men. Lap dancing can be a "lab" to experiment
with good touch ideas to be used in real relationships.
The point of this social experiment and the San Fran research was to
show that even as an old man, graying, paunchy, not at all a young stud,
I can illicit very positive response even on a just met basis by sharing
techniques with lap dancers with many of them telling me they hardly
ever experience such touch from most men, whether customers or boyfriends.
There is nothing wrong with being sexual. That is man's natural inclination
with women. But I simply suggest that for some of us, learning good
touch skills can wonderfully enhance our relationship with a wide variety
of women.
Good Touch Workshop?
I'm even willing to do some sort of workshop for interested men if it
can be practically arranged. A practical problem is organization, location
and participants. A strip club is not a good place to try and lead a
workshop since we need a more private quiet setting. A home is ideal.
You also need women to practice with. If a group of men wanted to have
a workshop with their girlfriends that would be ideal. Or, get some
strippers who are open to the idea. I do need a willing body to demonstrate
on! Participants could also share other intimacy ideas that they have
found women enjoy. I certainly don't have all the skills. But so many
women tell me that most men don't have a clue when it comes to the type
of touch many women really enjoy this is why I am motivated to share
whatever lessons I've learned over the years in interacting with women,
leading couples intimacy groups and sharing the good touch I enjoy with
so many nude and topless dancers - a good potential lab to explore and
enhance skills.
Sample good and very bad reactions to my report:
From a man living in San Francisco
Law enforcement? Prostitution is illegal in SF, as it is all over the
rest of the state and most of the country, but the current city administration
seems to be taking the stand that if its off the streets, they will
ignore it. As far as I know, there has never been a prostitution bust
in any SF strip club, at least not for the last 10 years or so that
I have paid attention to the scene. The number of street girls however,
is far less than two and three years ago, before Willie took office.
From a Tucson man:
I just got done reading your report on "Dave's Lap Dancer Exp". It is
true that men are mostly concerned with the physical contact with a
pretty woman or a woman with a nice body.
Before I found I your web site and began reading the reviews, I would
go to the usual topless bars here in Tucson to get a cheap feel from
a dancer. However, since I started to get to know the dancers, I began
to sense that most of them really are great people outside the club
environment.
One particular night I went to TD's West here in Tucson and met what
had to have been the prettiest dancer there by far. She didn't ask me
for a dance, but rather sat down next to me and started talking. I was
very surprised by what she had to say, and was most impressed by her
confidence in her physical sexuality. Since then we have become good
friends and usually have great conversations, and she said the same
thing you mentioned in your report. Must of the girls know me at a few
of the clubs around town and well come and chat awhile, usually a couple
of songs before they offer me a dance. If I say no they stay for a couple
of more songs and then be on their way before they come back for a new
conversation. Now when ever I go to a club I think twice about who they
are and what they do.
At the end of your report you mentioned that you may start a class involving
massage techniques. I am interested in the class and would like to attend
if you do get a class going.
From A Phoenix Man:
That was a great report, and you research seems to have paid off well.
While I too like to caress as much as possible, you do make me envious
of your abilities. I have seriously considered getting some real instruction
(other than what I can find in a book) on massage techniques. Judging
from the response I get from my limited ability, and from your story,
any improvement should produce phenomenal results.
From A San Francisco Man:
Dave, You mentioned your age and your paunchy midriff. Any woman worth
her salt who actually looks at men's behavior will say that a certain
amount of genuine gentleness and masculine sensuality will be a bigger
draw than a mans immediate physical appearance. It seems that Asian
women are especially sensitive to this sort of non verbal body language!
In short, even if professional ( sex tourist related ) a mans interaction
with a woman seems to be successful if he is caring in to her verbal
language. Your posts seems to reflect this sort of practiced skill.
I am NOT recommending whippy behaviour. That goes over like three
farts in church during easter sunday celebrations!
I only am raising this point since you seemed to be focusing a
little too much on some aspects of your physical appearance as a negative
factor while not giving credit to some impressive non verbal skills
you seem to have honed to a fine edge.
p.s. - I have had no problem getting bed partners with Chinese women,
even though I am only average in appearance. The Chinese women I have
known have turned down some 'hunks' who have the social graces of iguanas
in favor of lesser endowed men who know something of the emotional needs
of the women involved.
Dave's Reply: Thank you for your comments. There are many nice
sensitive men out there which as you point out is far different than
being "whippy". I only mentioned my age/appearance to prove the
good point that you make - that hunkiness is not the key to a women's
heart, but for most women fulfilling emotional needs such as via good
touch as well as being an interesting conversationalist and being sincerely
interested in the woman as a person not just a sex object. I also
enjoy long hours of loving sexuality which I hope to experiment with
more in Asia since it is so much less expensive than in the U.S. I have
almost given up on finding open minded more sensuous American women
that I'm also attracted to.
When I go to Asia hopefully this year, I'm concerned about the language
issue, which is why I will probably go to the Philippines rather than
Thailand since English is more common. I'm not good at learning
languages - I have enough trouble with English!
Thanks again for your insightful comments. Dave
Another:
Dave, HI! :-) I just read with some interest your article about going
to San Francisco and your experience with providing sensual massage
and touching techniques on some of the dancers.
I would love to be able to do the same thing here in Seattle, but with
laws in many counties requiring a minimum distance of 4 feet between
dancer and customer or other non-touch laws it is near impossible to
find a dancer who will risk her job and even jail to let some man touch
her in any way. During laps and table dances you must keep your hands
at your sides... Kind of discouraging to say the least...
I feel a lot of the problem is too many men want to grab their breasts
and genital area... I don't blame the women for looking at most of the
customers as jerks and creeps. But I would love to be able to give the
dancers as much pleasure as they give me with there intimacy.
Anyway...maybe one day I will get to go to San Francisco and experience
what you did... Til then... Peace.
Dave Replies: LEGAL ATTITUDES TOWARDS TOUCHING SO BACKWARDS
Just like in Phoenix which passed a new ordinance, which is common in
many cities, trying to outlaw such wholesome interaction by keeping
dancers at a distance from customers.
As expected in a shame-based, anti-sex society, tease and titillation
of body parts is much more politically acceptable than good touch and
mature human interaction. The ACLU obtained an injunction prohibiting
the new laws’ implementation for two years. However on December 5, 1995,
it became effective and then was appealed again. The private dances
have not changed much but stages had to add silly barriers to keep dancers
farther away from customers. That's the mentality of politicians. I
suppose they think AIDS is going to jump out from the men to the dancer...or
hands...that terrible taboo of touch the politicians fear when what
we need is more good human touch not less. The bouncers will kick out
anyone trying to be sexual, so we don't need repressive laws. The dancers
now have to be licensed by the city like they are potentially dangerous
to the morality of the community!
It's the community and these laws that are sick and dangerous. The same
applies to the prostitution laws. If single men could get their natural
drive for sex satisfied by sex workers there would be less violence
and sexual crimes.
But most people in our sexually immature society just don't get it.
In the clubs I review, there is no prostitution, only good touch and
great nonsexual intimacy available.
Original Person Replies:
I totally agree.... I can understand the reluctance for communities
to start allowing physical contact between dancers and customers because
they think its the opening of the door to prostituion, gangs and drugs...
Only because that is what they hear in the media and from the politicians
who believe most people are puritanical blue noses.
But if a club is well run with good bouncers to protect the dancers
from unwanted touches then I feel its no one elses business what goes
on between the dancers and the customers.
Look at Amsterdam where almost anything is legal... The rates of
sex crimes is much lower than in London, a city of comparable size...
Why? I think because the people are raised in a atmosphere of sexual
repression in London... Anyway... Now I am gonna have to get out to
some strip clubs outside of Seattle and King County and find out what
the dancers think of being massaged and caressed in a non sexual, non
threatening way... I feel alot of the problem is too many men want to
grab their breasts and genital area... I dont blame the women for looking
at most of the customers as jerks and creeps. But I would love to be
able to give the dancers as much pleasure as they give me with there
intimacy.
I wanted to tell you about a dancer I met in Kalamazoo Michigan a
couple weeks ago when I visited a Deja Vu club.... First off let me
say this was a non-contact club except during topless dances. THen the
dancers would rub your with parts of their bodies but nothing overtly
sexual.
Plus I had to keep my hands at my sides at all times... Anyway, this
one dancer I didnt get to meet until I had been in the club for several
hours, since she was busy in the VIP rooms most of the night. She came
up to me and told me she was very interested in talking to me cause
she thought I had a very expressive face. She was very nice and I got
several dances from her..Her name was Alex and I talked to her alot
and she told me she felt very comfortable with me that I wasnt like
the usual guys she meets who just want to get away with as much as they
can and not talk to her at all except to tell her how much they like
her tits, etc... the usuall crap... Well, she had just had a baby a
few months before this and she still had evidence of the stretch marks
on her tummy which she had kept covered all night with a white lacy
wrap, tied around her middle... Anyway, I told her to let me see and
she finally did and I reached out and touched her gently, stroking her
tummy and smiling into her eyes..I told her not to be ashamed of that
cause she is a mommy and she earned every one of those marks and I thought
they were beautiful and natural like she was.. Well, she just beamed
and after that didnt want to leave me for the rest of the shift.. a
couple more hours... It was a very nice time...
For more sample good replies to these ideas from a men that enjoy sharing
sensual touch with dancers see:
http://sexwork.com/dancers/stripclubs.html
Unfortunately I must not have communicated in my report very well to
some.
Follows is a public discussion I (DAVE) had with an upset reader (EYE)
on alt.sex.strip-clubs and my replies. It starts out very attacking
but finishes with good discussion. Pardon EYE's language, it is not
mine.
EYE: <DGBrooks@ix.netcom.com> wrote: There's no conversation to be had
with you, Loser. You issue your manifestos from up on your Godly perch
and we hurl chunks in response. Deal with it.
DAVE: Ok I respect your opinion.
EYE: "caring", my butt! Dancers are there to earn an honest living,
and you totally rip them off with your non tipping policy..... and have
the nerve to BRAG about it here.
DAVE: No I don't BRAG about it. I only mention it since in Phoenix some
dancers enjoy good touch over just tips. I never recommend this for
anyone else. I spend a fortunate as it is with dance fees.
At sexwork.com I say:
PAY A FAIR PRICE FOR GOOD TOUCH LIKE GOOD FOOD Sharing good nonsexual
touch for its medical as well as emotional benefits is just as important
as attractive food. Just like you go to a good restaurant, and pay a
fair price for beautifully prepared food, you should be willing to support
clubs and dancers by paying a fair tip to have important touch needs
met by an attractive woman.
Regarding my tipping I don't brag about it, don't recommend to others
and say:
TIPPING - The dancers at all the clubs make most of their money by tips.
However, since I am only looking for dancers that honestly do enjoy
my touch, as a test of their sincerity I never tip dancers. Yet I am
very popular at many clubs. I DO NOT recommend this non-tipping for
others. I do it more as a social experiment. Because I meet so many
dancers it is very expensive for me even without tipping. Sadly the
dancers hardly make any money from me, so of course some dancers are
not interested in me. But many dancers prefer a good neck/back massage
and good touch to just good tips. It's my way of finding dancers to
whom I can give something that they enjoy more than just tips. BUT please
men...do tip generously.
EYE: Oh yeah, you pay the management pimps the standard rate, of which
they keep 80%, and that clears your vacant conscience while you perform
your ritual molestation. Dancers are mere chattel to you, desparate
sharecroppers of their own bodies which you plunder with your greedy
meathooks in the name of Jesus Christ.
DAVE: I respect your opinion but if you ever read anything I actually
say on sexwork.com I don't see how on earth you can say I think of dancers
as chattel. My whole point is to relate to them as warm spirits as I
discuss not as sex objects.
It's so sad you think nice touch is molestation. You must have been
badly sexually abused as a child to think that way. I hope you get some
help.
EYE: Fucking blasphemer racist hypocrite!
DAVE: I do wish you could clean up your language and just attack me
with mature discussion instead of throwing a tantrum. Are you capable
of that?
EYE: Good discussion??? oh god yer dumb as a speedbump. When are you
going to start to realize what an absolute BAD joke you are around here?
It's not sinking in at all, is it?
DAVE: Yes, I realize some folks are only interested in women as body
parts and using such language makes them feel big and macho. I simply
am different, which isn't better, just different in how I express myself
and the interests I have regarding strip dancers.
Best wishes,
NEXT POSTS:
EYE <DGBrooks@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
DAVE: Some good intelligent discussion instead of just ranting. Thank
You.
EYE: In case it needs to be pointed out here, we are not engaged in
a test of wills between the loving touch proponents vs. the grab and
grope proponents.
DAVE: Exactly. As I said in my SF report a number of times, there is
nothing wrong with the grab and grope folks. My purpose was simply to
share my experiences with more loving touch and that many dancers respond
so well to it. I simply encourage men who might wish to try it and learn
such skills if they are so inclined. I realize the main attitude at
strip clubs is obviously more sexual. Again all I'm trying to do is
show that such clubs can be worthwhile for us that enjoy sharing more
loving good sensual (but not having to be sexual) touch. And it is simply
a fact that many dancers express their delight and desire that other
men would do it more, including their boyfriends. That is why I try
and encourage men to try it if they wish and I try and share my ideas
learned over many years.
EYE: I don't represent some imaginary conflicting school of thought
on how to treat dancers at their place of employment. In fact, I think
it's very nice that you are at one with Barry White,
DAVE: Whose Barry White?
EYE: and I don't doubt for a minute that given the choice between your
approach and that of the drunken roustabout variety, any sensible dancer
would opt for the tenderness route. I wish they'd have a slow dance
night at my local dive so I could waltz my way into nirvana with the
independent contractor of my choice.
DAVE: Well said.
EYE: So what's my beef?
DAVE: Good, lets discuss it like adults who can respect differences
in ideas.
EYE: That you find it necessary to represent yourself as the force of
light and goodness, thereby casting your audience as unenlightened boors
in need of a droning how-to approach to human interaction. It is condescending
at best, and in fact is typically insulting, especially when you introduce
your less than dignified racial stereotypes into the mix.
DAVE: Thank you for expressing your reaction so well.
My intent was not to come across this way. I said a number of times
in my review that I realized many men were much better at good touch
then I am. In reviewing some of the more intimate dancers I said, I
thought they were the same with most men, not just me (the naturally
intimate). I showed a few examples of dancers that I seemed to especially
connect with to show, not that there is anything so great about me (I
mentioned I'm certainly not that attractive) but the reaction was from
the touch/intimacy ideas that I tried to share in hopes that some other
men who have not yet explored that aspect of their sensuality might
be encouraged to do so. That was my purpose not to be condescending
or to represent myself as the force of light and goodness,
As much as I tried not to sound that way, I must have to some folks
for which I apologize. That was clearly not my intent. My interest is
simply promoting the ideas of move good touch intimacy for those men
who might find it of interest. Again as I said many times, there is
nothing wrong with not having that interest.
I am somewhat outspoken on this issue due to the change it made in my
own life. Learning these ideas (via many HAI workshops at Harbin N of
San Francisco in the 80s, as I discuss on my background page on the
web, transformed me from a very insecure, scared of women basket case
which repelled most women, to where I am today. For some that is terrible
since I'm perceived as just a selfish know-it-all. So somehow my intent
is not getting across. So that is my fault the responsibility for which
accept. I wish I had learned 20 years ago what I know today regarding
women. But I had to experience it the hard way with lots of rejection,
insecurity and loneliness since I was simply needy and scared of women.
I never dated or went to a dance until I was a junior in college. That
was many many years ago since I am 51 now.
Perhaps my enthusiasm for how I view women and relationships today makes
me too outspoken and sounding like God's gift to women. That is clearly
not my intent.
I do appreciate the opportunity to have a civil discussion with folks
if they don't agree with me or how I present my ideas.
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