June 25 2007  Dave back reviewing clubs.

 Extensive new report - Click for New Report

Below are old reports

San Francisco Escorts, Massage & more! FREE Guide
  While I don't report on other sexwork options in San Francisco since too costly for me being so spoiled in Canada the website Lovings.com seems to have a good reputation for honestly and is an extensive resource for many sex positive options especially in the Bay area.  So I have agreed to exchange links with them which I rarely do. Our link is in their category "Sexuality Resources and Activism"

June 19 2007 update Market Street Cinema not no touch but nothing like the past.  Excellent current review "MSC Revisited" at http://forum.myredbook.com/dcforum2/DCForumID11/15762.html
July 30 2005 San Francisco Market Street Cinema No Touch Rule
MSC went from more like a brothel which was often referred to as the "Cesspool" to now the extreme of no touch rule if dancer doesn't have on her bra and panties.

The dancers have been directed by management that there will be no more sex on premises. Body contact between customers and dancers shall be limited to when dancers are covered, both top and bottom. There is to be no physical contact when the dancers are nude or semi nude. Management has been monitoring any private shows and enforcing these new rules. This is confirmed by many reports on San Francisco Red Book Review board where I posted my latest trip reports to the clubs as well of course on sexwork.com

It is not clear exactly why but there have been FBI investigations concerning the illegal sex trade and the local massage parlors. This now appears to have spread to the strip clubs as well. Rumor has it that Deja Vu (MSC's parent company) issued the directive possibly under pressure from federal officials to clean up their San Francisco act. The new rules apply not only to Market Street but also New Century Theatre.

The changes at Market Street Cinema represent the end of an era in America's most sexually free city.

Back to San Francisco Strip Cubs Update

Well it's been a long time since I did my extensive San Francisco strip club reviews on sexwork.com back in 1998. I have finally returned!

Having a business meeting on Monday here, I thought I'd take a couple days and relax and update my strip clubs from my somewhat unusual prospective. This report is meant more for travelers to San Francisco and newbies. It is based on my huge "fetish" for high touch intimacy and not expensive "extras".

Anyone who has followed my Canadian reviews for Toronto area http://www.sexworktoronto.com  , Hamilton and Niagara Falls area http://www.sexworkniagarafalls.com  will realize how spoiled I am from my Canadian experiences and their full contact nude laps for about $US15/song ($CDN20). Just for background, in Canada prostitution has never been illegal, but restricted to private outcall with nothing illegal about advertising for sex on web, newspapers, over phone etc.

The Canadian Supreme Court has ruled that full contact nude laps specifically including breast touching does not violate the bawdy house (incalls) restrictions as long as there is no "penetration or masturbation." For me, whose "fetish" is good touch intimacy, caressing and massaging (professionally trained in Esalen massage) that is perfect for Old Dave. If I want sex I will see an escort for an hour in a bed, or for a hj those wonderful nude-reverse-release parlors in Canada for under $US100/45 min or so. There are local licensing bylaws that restrict touch at strip clubs in some cities (questionable if challenged in Court), which is why I avoid clubs in the City of Toronto, but I enjoy great clubs in Mississauga (where the Toronto airport is) and Brampton.

I also use to very much enjoy Phoenix clubs until the law changes in 1998. I spoke before the City Council, was on radio talk shows and was very active fighting the changes in the strip club laws (and making swing clubs illegal).But while there was virtually no public support for the changes, the religious right who helped write the law had their way after six public hearings that were farces - since the City ignored all the input overwhelmingly against the changes and implemented them anyway.

Saturday Night at Market Street Cinema (MSC)

After arriving in San Francisco and settling in at hotel, decided to walk around a bit and gee, gosh, by golly, I would up in front or MSC. Now Stevi Secret who has often featured at MSC is a friend in Phoenix who told me "DO NOT go there at night on Saturday. They will have a lot of girls but a rough crowd and heavy hustle...DON'T get hustled." Thanks Stevi for looking after Old Dave, yet here I am 9pm Sat in front of MSC! OK I'm brave and I've been hustled from Manila to Bangkok, so I think I can handle it!

I had been trying to follow what was going on via myredbook.com discussion board. I knew that the back rooms were closed to install sprinklers since the city is giving them a rough time. But having various forms of quickie sex in a little cubical for an outrageous price (like the clubs in Nogales Mexico but at a fraction of the price) isn't my interest (My Journey to Sin City with Michelle included in http://www.sexwork.com/dancers/SanFranExperiment.html ). I also report in a Sept 2004 update the ongoing vice cops busts of clubs for their rather open sex but, that District Attorney Kamala Harris says she is "not about to invest her office's time or money on anything as inconsequential as lap dancing." San Francisco clubs continue to be among the most liberal in the U.S. I had read the article about even though the back rooms were closed dancers were finding all sorts of nocks and crannies to have various forms of sex in, not always very private.

Walking in, I note the set up is about the same as I recall from 1998 although now it is a $20 entrance fee (good all day, have hand stamped) and as soon as you walked in the girls attack you.... for dances. The hustle Stevi warned old Dave about. I wanted to walk the aisle in the back overlooking the main seating area and stage, to the other side, just to observe and get the lay of the land and then planned to sit and observe while open to being approached in the main theater area. I politely turned down about 4 gals offering me all sorts of "fun times" trying to get through the back aisle.


Sonny Wells

I had almost made it through the gauntlet of women, when I was approached by "Sonny Wells", a bit older but pretty much my preferred body type, more mature perhaps. Her approach while aggressive also after realizing I had my "hustle" guard up changed to lets sit and talk and get to know each other "won't cost you anything." She led me to the back rows of bench type seats in the back (better for laps than theater seats below) and started asking the usual questions and actually getting to know the me while sort of sitting in my lap, (more like in Canada and pre98 Phoenix) rather than just hustling for "fun."

When asked the right questions, I am very open about who I am and my interests (laps not getting extras I'd go to an escort for etc). I mentioned I'm more use to clubs in some Canadian cities and she says, she use to work at a club in Hamilton Ontario. Hamilton Strip? I ask. Yes! Turns out she has danced at my favorite Hamilton club. I jokingly ask if I can pay her in Canadian money! That led to more good discussion and I mentioned Stevi Secret who Sonny says she knows and also had mutual acquaintances in the industry as well as swinging.

Then I had a very enjoyable lap dance and good interactions like I enjoy. Lap dance prices instead of the $10 I report on from 1998 report are now $20 and to be topless is $40! My gosh in America we make breasts such a big sex object vs most of the rest of the world where breasts aren't that big of a deal, so the price goes up to "expose" and touch them. And the dancers aren't even nude for $40 vs. $US15 full contact nude laps in Canada. One of the differences from reading reports on redbook is that the dancers pay a nightly stage fee of something like $300-400 depending on the night vs in Canada where they keep all their lap dance fees and only pay about $40/night stage fee to the club.

Anyway I enjoyed my interaction with Sonny which turned out the best experience of the night. I overheard her later telling another dancer "he's a great guy" which was nice to hear :)


Many Others

Not being willing to pay $40/ topless dance to many others I did just the $20/lap option with a bunch of other dancers. They were all enjoyable but not the intimacy response I enjoy from many in Canada. As I've often noted in reports from meeting women from around the world, Americans growing up in our sex negative culture (accept to sell products) just don't respond the way in general, that European women respond in the way I enjoy far more than just grinding laps and trying to get you off.

I was offered the gamete of choices from a hj for $20 to I assume far more for $100, but I declined. One Asian dancer was quite cute and my body type, Pearl, but not much of what I call intimacy response, but enjoyable. One gal when I declined various offers with my saying that "I'm cheap" had a nice response saying,"no your not chap, a $20 lap dance isn't being cheap". I thought that was nice! She might have been a blonde dancer that is visiting here from Iowa who I had a nice brief time with but I am not sure.

Another larger black gal I turned down (as I did quite a few that weren't my preferred body type) seemed to not hear or want to take no for an answer (maybe the hustle Stevi warned me about). She kept putting her very large breasts into my hands, squishing down on them and trying her best to be seductive. I finally gave in and got into it doing my usual massaging her back a bit and things I like to do while dancing. I was concerned she seemed to just keep on going and going after more than I thought was one song. I was concerned about the expecting me to pay for lots of songs when I never actually agreed to any and turned her down cold when she asked (was willing to pay for one). But afterwards she said she was just enjoying how I was touching her and was happy with the $20 I gave her.


Not Much Stage Dancing

I recall back in 1998 they had some good stage dancing including some dancers that as part of their routine would come out in the audience and it was very entertaining. But not much real dancing was going on stage while I was there. Dancers have to get in the audience and hustle for dances since they have such a high stage fee to pay. They did do a line up with all the girls on stage at once which was good to see. They did have a feature dancer but whoever she was I wasn't there at the right time.


Six Young Guys

There was a group of about six young guys that the dancers got from the theater area up to the bench area near me. It seemed like they had never been to such a place. I heard one ask, "you mean I can touch you?". The gals seemed to enjoy breaking in these young lads.  In response a person on the redbook board says, "enjoy is right...  Leading the Lambs to Slaughter..."


3 Days Left

You can spend money fast at the clubs. I enjoy even brief interactions with a variety of dancers, so I will try and make the rounds of some of the other clubs and try some day shifts if I can. I also have some "assignments from Stevi to do if I can .

With the high parking fees and parking hassles in downtown SF this is my first time not renting a car when I am traveling. The airport shuttle for $15 was the same as one nights parking fee at the hotel. I will either walk or try the cabs and see how I get around the downtown area. I usually avoid downtowns when I can but have a business meeting Monday downtown and that is where most of the liberal strip clubs are in San Francisco.

I am staying just a few blocks from MSC in a fairly nice hotel that has many good tourist reviews at about $95/night but So of Market Street. The panhandlers that some tourist reviews warned about didn't seem nearly as bad as some of the reports, but I'm not on the streets real late at night either.


Crazy Horse Strip Club
Sunday Night

$20 Door fee. As expected from reading reviews, dancers generally more attractive and no "hustling" for more than dances. Usual pricing $20 "bikini" but some were more dressed (more than Bikini) than others and some in nice very little bikini's. Just to have her topless another $20 and another $20 for nude. As discussed in my report from Market Street Cinema, stuck with just $20 one lap since I enjoy sampling - looking for more the intimacy connection I enjoy.

I was especially looking out for Renee, who was recommended I see. Didn't see her by the description given. I did ask a dancer who said she wasn't working. I barely got a chance after a dance (in separate room in back with bench type seating) to jot some fast notes in my "little black book" and there was another dancer standing by me with a "want a dance"? Once on a Canadian board someone comment how great a memory I must have to recall so much details on so many dancers. No, its not good memory, I take fast notes. In Canada I usually go to the mens room to write notes, so its not so obvious what I'm doing that dancers might wonder about. I also like to wash hands between every few dancers - just good hygiene.

Few made any attempt at conversation and many didn't even introduce themselves just ask if want a dance.

Tyla - nice scanty bikini, hard trim body, very sexual but a 0 on my 0 (none) to 5 (greatest) intimacy response scale.

Justin - wow! First of all she approached me by standing behind me (I'm seating in theater area) and starts nice shoulder massage. She must know how much I like massage! Very much my type and perfect example of how I often "click" so well another a dancer that enjoys the same intimacy I do. Very sweat, immediately responded to the touch I enjoy giving, hugging closely, stroking, caressing, all the things I enjoy with another intimacy loving attractive women. Soon she was saying I had magic hands and how much she enjoyed the touch as I also do massage on back, neck, etc. Of course she isn't American (few have much intimacy response) but French of course. In fact had lived in Montreal. For escorts French-Canadians are well known for their wonderful responsive intimacy. Unfortunately most of the great French-Canadian women in Montreal don't speak English. They have their own newspapers in French for escort ads and many great French agencies. They also cost far less than most Canadians and seem to very much enjoy their "work". We started a great discussion and as I often say she talked about how Europeans enjoy so much the sensual side of sexuality more than Americans. She lives now in Hawaii and comes to San Francisco to work about every 3 weeks. After great discussion and my kind of intimate lap dance, she asked I stay (not pay) another song just to have me do more massage on her back which I enjoy doing. A 5+ on my intimacy scale.

Gloria - nice Latin (parents from Mexico) 3 on my intimacy scale.

Cream more mechanical about 2 on my intimacy scale and not bikini, had top mostly covered more than breasts.

Mystery started out mechanical but by end was responding, commenting about my hands and 3 on intimacy scale.

Peaches a bit heavy for my taste, but friendly approach and wonderful smile. Only 1 on my intimacy scale.

Jordan - very sexual, very mechanical 0 on intimacy scale.

TJ - Has lived in Vancouver but seemed a bit immature and a 0 on my intimacy scale.

I was impressed with the far less hustle factor than at MSC. No whining for more dances or extras. Some asked if I wouldn't enjoy topless more, and I usually say No, I'm too use to Canada. If they ask what that means as most do, I mention I'm spoiled by $US15 full nude full contact laps. When one says "But your now in San Fran" I reply, "that is why haven't been to San Francisco for 7 years and I go to Canada 3-5 times a year!

At least in San Francisco you have the options that aren't available in Phoenix, or most U.S. cities, its just far more expensive than what I'm willing to pay for to be topless of nude.

Had an enjoyable time, finding one gem but enjoyed all the gals to a certain extent.

Dave's Trek New Century, MBOT, MSC, CH Day Shifts

A rain trenched, feet hurting, long trekking Dave back at hotel after quite a day of touring on foot San Francisco in the rain :( I think on the web report (sexwork.com) I will use the animated shoes that walk that I used for report from long day walking in Bangkok in my Thailand report.

Started day taking nice cab to 650 California Street for a business meeting. Hey getting to New Century on Larkin didn't look that far and while I am very out of shape enjoy walking around cities..if not TOO far. Well little did I realize from the map that half the trek is uphill at what must be 45 degree incline on California Street (some dancers later told me if I had gone So a block or so the climb isn't as bad?). Old Dave had to catch his breath a few minutes each block. I should have brought or bought an umbrella like most sensible folks but I won't melt in the rain.

FINIALLY, soaked and pooped made it to New Century Theater about 1:30pm. Signs say it opens at 11:30 am, lights on in front, door open and "open" sign. Go in and they say there are closed since none of the dancers has shown up. :( But should be there "soon".

OK, as much as I didn't think I wanted to try out MBOT its only a few blocks away and didn't go there on my 1998 trip but zillions of years earlier. So hoping MBOT is at least open so I can sit down, dry and thaw out from the cold I decided to try it. Yes, open.

A side story, I kept running into this black dude on the street. I passed him around California street, wind up at a light waiting to cross the street a couple times and there he is again on Larkin. He jokingly (I think) asks if I am following him. Hardly. Most of the street people just mumble incoherently and I ignore but this guy was at least polite and fairly well dressed but not pimp like. He is telling me something about something good, while I'm waiting to cross the street half ignoring him - I think it was something about where to get some good crack or something. I have no idea the terms he was using and I quickly walked to get ahead of him once the light turned. I don't think he was stalking me since he was ahead of me each time, I came up behind him since I was walking faster. I think he went So before Larkin while I was still taking the high road on California St to Larkin and then So to New Century. We will meet yet again later!


MBOT (Mitchell Brothers O'Farrell Theatre for the new comer)

$30 door fee. Nice to sit in the strip club theater area and dry out. Attractive nude dancers, but looking at bodies and stage dancing isn't really my interest, and get bored quickly no matter how hot the dancer (seen zillions of beautiful naked women over many years, I prefer the one-on-one interactions). When arrived was about 25 guys but went down to about 10 over the next 30 minutes (had to get back to work?). Other than the stage dancer sometimes going up to men they seemed to know, there was no floor girls looking for dances or anything.

There was no activity other than some guys sitting around with no girls in the other rooms. I had remembered the place being larger with much more activity from my last visit probably in the early 90's. The game seems to be the gals that are free approach you in the hall area (outside the strip club section) and then seduce you for private dances that start at .. $125 for the booth! Yikes.

I did check out the porn theater which was open (2 guys in it) playing a very old John Holmes porn flick. I sort of walked around a bit, noticed most of the gals talking to guys in the hall were quite attractive but I had no interest in a fast whatevertheydo in the booths at those prices. I was basically killing some time before going back to try New Century and wondered back into the porn flick theater. A gal from the hall followed me and started the usual talk about how she could make me so happy etc. Agreed to do a $20 lap dance with her. Was Ok, seductive, but a zero on my intimacy scale. Told me about the wonderful make me happy options starting at $125 for the booth and then consider other happy options. I passed.


Susans Massage & Black Dude

Left MBOT, confirming my non interest vs the other clubs and had earlier noted the two Asian massage parlors Blue something on one side of street (Larkin I think) and Susans on the other. Both have big gates and you have to ring the bell and stand and wait till buzzed in. I was hesitant from reviews but could also use a real massage at this point.

I am standing on the corner of the street just So of Susans when guess who walks up. The black dude I met before. I guess he figured out I was more interested in girls than drugs as he said something about (I think the Blue place) where they all have AIDS, but nice Asian girls at Susans if I understood right. And something about if I go to a place he points out up the street and see a certain girl, I can get free tickets to the New Century. I do engage in a bit of conversation he doesn't seem drunk or stoned and actually seems to be trying to be helpful. He warns me the area is dangerous at night but he is around to "watch my back". Of course he is looking for food money to buy a hamburger, but asks actually in a very polite manner so I do give him $5. 99.9% of the time I totally ignore the street people and just walk fast by them. Its not my job to solve the social problems of the streets by giving out money which only encourages them to stay on the streets in my view.

A local on redbook message board comments:

the black dude in the nct area is almost always around there. we're almost on a first name basis, but we don't know each otjer's names! he always has coupons to give away for free entry to nct as long as you buy a bottomless non-alcoholic drink. it's cheaper than paying normal admission. those come from the nct website.

After he is gone I ring the bell at Susans and welcomed by older Asian women. Shows me to small room with bath and mattress on the floor. After being with so many young beautiful dancers decide she just isn't my type even for regular massage and I know lots of extras will probably offered. So say I just wanted to find the price ($50) but politely bailed.

New Century Theater Try Again

It is now a little after 2:30 so head back to NCT. There is a gal and a couple mangers? male workers in the lobby. Tal tells me still no dancers but should be some coming in another 30 minutes or so. I decide to give up on NC if they have such a problem with dancers even showing up when they advertise they are open at 11:30am. Its raining, feet hurt, so sort of watching for cabs as I start the long trek down to Market Street in the rain. The only cabs I spot have passengers in them. I make it to Golden Gate and remember it kind of goes diagonally and cuts off some distance so I head to 7th and Market that way. My hotel is a few blocks So of 7th and Market.

But when I get to Market, heck I decide I want to check out MSC and CH day shifts and I'm so close but if I go back to hotel will probably collapse and not get out again. So I get to MSC


MSC Day Shift

Another $20 door fee, only about a dozen guys and quite a few dancers. I'm immediately approached by I think Janette- heavy hustle do a $20 lap and she talks me into a 2 for 1 $40 in back. So we go back into what use to be the wall dance area. Very dark, tiny chairs to sit on. Gal next to us is yelling "pervert" to the guy she had and tells him to go get more money from the ATM machine to touch her breasts. Janette is OK but low on intimacy scale and wants to have more fun with me, I pass.

Lori next as I've barely hit the seat back in the theater. She at least sits and talks for awhile. Realizes I'm not a big spender and hesitant so offers a $20 including topless. I enjoy but low intimacy response but OK.

As soon as she leaves, another comes (can tell their desperate) but I pass and decide its time to check out CH where I had a better time last night without all the hustle for expensive options.


Crazy Horse Day Shift

I am starting to appreciate CH more and more for a far more laid back non hustle atmosphere and in general more attractive dancers. About a dozen guys only a few dancers around. Stayed here maybe two hours, lots of time between approaches (would have wanted more vs every few seconds at MSC). But many of the dancers seemed to know many of the guys that came in and out, often just sitting with them in the theatre for a long time, on their laps, one was holding hands (nice) etc. If I lived here this could be a great hangout for me.

forgothername - nice but missed name and just average.

"Mystery" - Nicely dressed, I like her open back and body type. Nice soft skin I enjoyed caressing, massaging etc but seemed distant, almost no talk and zero intimacy reaction. Seemed to have a guard up against anything intimate as I define it (nothing sexual). But enjoyed her nice body.

"Paradise" - Another "wow". We really hit it off! She is like an open book and loves to talk when she is comfortable with you it seemed. She was born in Cebu, the Philippines so having been to Manila that opened up lots of discussion even including neither of us now being able to understand their English since so heavy tagalog accents. She left at age 5, lived in Hawaii awhile speaks a little French, better than the Philippine tagalog dialects. We talked and danced a long, long time on the $20 dance! But her choice she was very talkative as we hit it off so well. Good intimacy but was more the intellectual intimacy I also enjoy meeting dancers and sharing as real people not just sex toys to play with! But she likes being a sex toy also! She is the only dancer I told about my websites and "research" trips I do. Asked how I got into it etc and told her quickly the long story. She gave me a card for her website where she is as Jenna Lei at http://xotix-asians.com/jennalei with lots of pictures and other info. She is quite an interesting and sexy lady.

GiGi - She is a bit larger than my ideal and turned her down once. But then she was sitting in front of me and she turned around and started talking with me and I couldn't resist that sweet face and smile. She quickly warmed up to my touch and mentioned how she liked how I was massaging her. About a 3 on my intimacy scale of 0-5.

Valitina - Small cute gal very friendly sitting next to me in theater with my arms around her vs most gals just stand up by you with their "want a dance". Lap dance quite sensual and wanted me to do more with her but not the hard sell like at MSC. About a 3 on my intimacy scale.

Mystery (again) - Mystery sort of intrigued me as I watched her approach guys for dances. I am still very attracted to her body, soft skin and face. I wondered if she was all seduction but rather hard all business in sessions as she seemed with me, vs wondering about the real her if she may be very warm and genuine in real life relationships. To my surprise she again approached me for another dance (had one earlier). Hmm.. I accepted and enjoyed another lap. She is part Spanish and part Persian. I probably got her up to a low 2 on my intimacy scale... hard to describe.. but seemed to have a barrier on intimacy which I respected. She did intrigue me and was certainly a mystery.

There were other dancers I would have liked to have a lap with but gave up after awhile as they were sitting with guys they seemed to know or others just never approached Old Dave. A very enjoyable time as it was last night at CH.

Dave's Tues Night at Crazy Horse

The night that almost wasn't. I have a blister on a toe from all the walking yesterday and going to dinner across the street was quite painful, not to mention the rain. Gosh this is first trip in a long time I didn't pack an umbrella (never needed it when I had it). And couldn't find any stores that had them along Market Street near me. When I checked the forecast before I left Phoenix rain was suppose to stop on Saturday and be party cloudy most of this week. This is the rainiest partly cloudy I have seen, not to mention the Tornado that hit So San Francisco just No of the airport on Sunday.

But I doctor my toe a bit, bandage and extra sock as padding it feels much better. Still raining but would love to visit CH one more time since I've enjoyed it so much the last three visits. So for the sake of "research" off I go the about 8 blocks in the rain to CH.

For those that don't like my book length travels reviews this may be another Chapter so be warned. My however tell me in past reports from various cities they enjoy my travelog vs just what girl went how far etc.

As folks may know that have followed my reviews around the world... I am more interested in the interpersonal aspects getting to know dancers while briefly as real people to interact with and not just as sex objects. I have over the many years developed certain "intimacy" techniques that I often but not always get great response from and I share my experiences with them not to be "God's gift to women" but encourage guys to be more open to good quality touch, to learn some massage skills that so many dancers appreciate and I very much enjoy doing on dancers if I feel they are receptive (virtually 100% are but react differently). I've offered to do workshops to share ideas on my massage and intimacy techniques and have done them for couples in Canada, at swing club conventions etc., over the years.

I've also learned that just because a dancer (or escort etc) isn't a high non-sexual intimacy responder, doesn't mean she isn't "touched" by it. My enjoyment in interactions isn't just sexual but reaching inside a person via caring touch/massage and I enjoy their reaction to it. But sometimes even if there is no outer response, there can be an inner response. For example, a dancer (not on this trip) who seemed to be a total non responder, who would rank a zero on my intimacy scale, once afterwards fell into my arms crying telling me she had never been touched so tenderly even by boyfriends etc. But I enjoy the interaction with women, regardless of their response, and to some they may not like my type of touch, yet I share this not to be bragging but to encourage guys to consider the power of caring touch that is far different than the groping and grabbing many dancers tell me they usually get from guys (not in San Francisco of course but everyplace else!).

So with that sermon I will get to the blog type review. Soaked and cold I make it to Crazy Horse - $25 door fee. A fair number of dancers and customers for such a night. It is probably about 10:30 PM.

Soon Mystery greets me remembering me from Saturday night. Did $20 lap but I'm thinking should have done $40 since has most of top covered by shirt, not in a bikini outfit like some are. I think I could like her, and as if often the case once a dancer knows you and you return, its much more comfortable for both. About a 3 on my intimacy scale but I'm kicking my self for not doing topless. Has me to do more massage on her back after song time over. Even though I have resisted the high costs of topless $40 vs my "spoiled use to $15 for full nude, full contact in Canada thinking on my last night here would like to nicely caress some breasts! And won't have another chance till I start my summer trips to Canada probably starting in May since no such options exist in Phoenix. More to the Mystery story still to come....

Tammy - Asian I keep thinking I've met before but the Asians are all starting to look alike (and usually the most intimate). From Manila and I mention I've enjoyed the clubs in Makati District of Manila and Angeles City. I give in a go for topless even for two songs only had to pay $20 for second still topless. Nice smaller breasts to nicely caress and massage, just like Dave prefers. Very nice and 4 on my intimacy scale (of 0=no response to 5= highest response). But a 5 on my sensual meter, very sensual.

Cream - recognized me from Saturday night, very friendly. Sweeter on this 2nd meeting, about a 3 on my intimacy scale, do topless nice perfect for Dave about B breasts. Went on for extra song doing massage as I recall.

Jordan - dashes up to me when I'm in the theater seating very friendly, remembering me from Sat night and just saying if want a dance let her know. I think she was going on stage shortly so couldn't dance then. Very bubbling outgoing and nice almost bikini outfit. (more story of Jordan to come). I recall her very mechanical 0 rating from Saturday night but she certainly is friendly tonight which I like as all guys would.

Alexis - from Texas, tall, nice soft perfect breasts I enjoy doing topless (and rest of her). She comments on my soft hands. I often get comments that I guess I'm lucky to have soft hands. Have no idea why other than I don't do any manual labor other than lots of typing on a typewriter.

Mystery catches me... she spots me writing notes in my little black book and sits next to me snuggling up asking "are you writing anything about me...can I see?" Busted. I usually go hide in the mens room to make notes but was trying to sneak a few notes in the theater without raising having gals wonder what I'm doing. OK, I tell her I'm reviewing clubs have a website etc and yes I say good things about her but has to read it on my site or redbook (she seems to be Internet savvy). Have good discussion and she's very friendly about it...snuggles and gives me nice kiss. I always try and avoid being "busted" since then I don't know if dancers know I am doing reviews they may not be their natural self. They might either avoid me being scared of a review, or "kiss up" to me which wouldn't result in perhaps an honest review.

I note that Mystery than sits with some of the other gals including Jordan. I am wondering if she told them anything about me. I never do find out.

Jordan soon bounds over to me, and off we go to the VIP room. Even though I had her as mechanical and 0 on intimacy scale Saturday night her friendliness and nice body got to me and did topless. I can sense she enjoys doing all sorts of positions in front of you and Ok with limited touch but at one point gently moves my hands away when I try and nicely caress her breasts. Most other dancers even if just "bikini" dance would grab my hands and plop them on their breasts! Gee, I must be losing my touch since in Canada I often get such good response to my soft gentle breast massaging and caressing. But I take the hint and don't venture there again. But she was enjoyable and other touch she seemed fine with.

At some point I find out what the cost is for the private booths off the VIP room. Seems like I read it before on redbook but its $80 for 2 topless songs and $100 for 3 (I think I got that right or was one of them for nude?)

Now there is a lull in my activity and I'm noting a gal and a couple enjoying the show. Place is obviously very couple friendly. And the dancers seem very friendly with each other and supportive.

I didn't realize it from Saturday but Paradise who I enjoyed is a feature dancer with her friend Didi who she had mentioned to me Sat but wasn't there that night. Paradise and Didi do a nice routine on stage together. As they are dancing Olivia offers me a dance. I know she has had good reviews and want to accept but I'm curious to see Paradise's dance routine and tell her I'd love to but after their dance. Unfortunately she doesn't come back again and don't see her working the floor again.

After Paradise/Didi dance (I think Paradise spots me and is smiling at me), Jordan enthusiastically sites down beside me and starts a conversation asking all sorts of questions and is very open about herself (has danced for over a year including in Sacramento and City of Industry Rhino (where I've been) and here at CH for just 3 weeks. She is cuddled next to me with my arm around her and her hand on my leg in nice affectionate way. Interesting the mixed messages vs the dance a bit non intimate. We talk about a lot of things, and finally I ask her about how she seemed uncomfortable with my breast caressing. She apologized saying she has always been shy about her breasts even tends to hide them when with her boyfriend, just always has been shy about them. Also says she rarely does topless so isn't use to it (my luck I started doing mostly topless tonight). I appreciated openness and honestly. Again reminded me of the American women vs most foreign women huge difference in sensual/intimacy response I have observed consistently so many times.

Later I notice her bubbling personality interacting with others, even giving a dancer a big hug as she was leaving to go home (think she was new didn't notice who in her street clothing). Jordan sort of reminded me of "our" Jordan K in Phoenix is a great dynamic escort and they even look a bit alike. In VIP room I also noted her with the couple (both man and women) I guess showing them what goes on. Perhaps the gal was considering being a dancer and checking it out with her boyfriend.

On stage Mystery and R? (well reviewed) also did a stage show together and the couple was in front row interacting with the dancers especially the women it seemed.

Tyra - I almost turned her down remembering her 0 on my intimacy scale from Saturday night but I am attracted to her sleek body in bikini outfit so I go all out and do topless. Nice body, although breasts a bit too large for my tastes but she is nice even though only moved up to about a 1 on my intimacy scale!

A couple times during the rest of the evening Jordan returns and sits next to me for a few minutes. I keep wondering does she or doesn't she.. either like me.. or was told my Mystery I do reviews and wanting to be friendly. But she is friendly with everyone but was curious the special interest she seemed to take with me after the two rather mechanical dance sessions . But she also had greeted me so warmly much earlier before Mystery knew I did reviews on a website. This will remain a mystery. Regardless she is very nice.

Jackie from Thailand - Very nice 5 on intimacy scale. Did a couple dances with her. Watches time very closely. Most dancers seemed to go over one song but she was very punctual like she had a built in meter running. Yet, very nice.

Its now a bit after 1am, they close at 2 but quite a few dancers are leaving and the audience is down to about 10. I would have liked to have danced with Olivia, R?, Dedi and Paradise but they seemed to have disappeared. I did exchange smiles with Paradise a few times as we crossed paths when I was with another dancer heading for the VIP room or in the VIP, but never when both of us were available.

Still raining lightly as I plod back to my hotel. While the weather was cold and rainy the 4 days here, and I would have liked to get to more clubs I very much enjoyed my visit. I will probably return again in 7 years :( and appreciate how great it is in some cities in Canada with same kind of wonderful gals (actually more foreign gals, lots of Eastern European who are almost all so wonderfully sensual and intimacy responsive) and far lower costs ($US15/uncut long songs for naked full contact). But I did enjoy the expensive experience in San Francisco since few places in the U.S. with the same options at any cost.

September 2004
Lap Dancing - No Wasting Police resources on sex San Francisco Strip Clubs
Highlights shared with full credit
Source: COMES NATURALLY #151 by David Steinberg

District Attorney Kamala Harris said she is " not about to invest her office's time or money on anything as inconsequential as lap dancing." This is related to:
The May 5 2004 bust where , three undercover vice squad officers walked into San Francisco's the nearly empty New Century lap-dancing theater and were, they say, all openly and unapologetically solicited for sex almost before their eyes had adjusted to the darkness. On May 18, an identical scenario unfolded at the Market Street Cinema. Nine dancers and three club managers were arrested during the two raids. The dancers were charged with prostitution, the managers with "keeping a house of ill repute."

While Harris is not going so far as to publicly support decriminalization of prostitution in San Francisco, she has said for the record that 1) her primary concern about the lap-dancing theaters is the safety of the women who work there, not the sexual nature of their work, and 2) she intends to "prioritize murders, rapes, and narcotics crimes higher than whether people are paying for consensual sex in the theaters' private booths."

The decision reflects a largely unpublicized consensus among politicians, neighborhood groups, strip club owners, dancers, and customers on the value of private sexual entertainment to San Francisco. The decision also has the potential to influence the policies of other cities as they craft their own responses to this latest addition to the American sex-entertainment palette.

The entire outstanding article that goes into detail of the history of San Francisco strip clubs the lawsuits by dancers and the various dancers position (forced to do sex acts to pay the high stage fees vs. enjoying the opportunity to provide sexual services) is at Sept 2004 SF Strip Club Update

My favorite ideas from the rest of the article include:
Supporting prostitution more generally as a legitimate sexual activity worthy of decriminalization.

Lap-dancing clubs are places not where women are forced into prostitution but "These women are more like athletes at the top of their game than helpless victims,"

"We're not on the streets..., We're provided with an enclosed area, private booths, a safe work environment, security guards, panic buttons, and managers who are willing to work with us on areas of disagreement....It's not like being in a hotel room with doors and locks. We have panic buttons that light up in the manager's office when we push them. One time, I hit the panic button by mistake, and within seconds there were four security guards and a manager at my booth to find out what was wrong. Once guys are in the private rooms, they're in our space, our office. If we're not comfortable with something, we just walk out of the room."

Gennifer Hirano, who holds what she calls a "moderate stripper perspective," feels that police intervention in lap-dancing clubs is wrong, no matter how much sexual activity is going on. "I was horrified that women were arrested for prostitution at the clubs," she says. "It always feels like an invasion when institutionalized authority is brought in."

Hirano, who did not engage in sexual activity when she was working at the clubs, confesses that she initially had negative feelings about dancers who did sex work there. "I didn't want to have anything to do with any woman who was doing more than dance. I didn't understand why you would do that, when you can just sit on a guy's lap, touch his hair, and make good money. I used to think all sex workers were dysfunctional, that the best thing was for everyone to get out of sex work as soon as possible, that the more sex work you did, the more fucked up you were inside. I saw sex work as an addiction. I understand it differently now. Everyone has their own limits and boundaries, and they're all valid. "I had to address my internalized stigma ..."We have internalized so much social stigma associated with sex work, even as strippers. Once I realized where all this anger and hatred was coming from, I became proud of myself instead of hating myself. Sex work is a wonderful way to survive. It's all about asserting control and power. Women have always known how to use their bodies for survival. Learning how to marry a rich man is nothing more than nuclear-family-model sex work."

A poll of San Franciscans by the David Binder Research Group, commissioned by the Sex Worker Outreach Project last month, showed "overwhelming support" for decriminalization of prostitution in the city, according to Project coordinator Robyn Few. Just as Gavin Newsom's decision to give same-sex marriage the blessing of City Hall catapulted public awareness of that issue to a broad new plateau, so has Kamala Harris' stance regarding arrests for sexual activity in lap-dancing clubs dramatically shifted the framework for public discussion of sex work in San Francisco. Whatever happens next will send legal, cultural, and political shock waves far beyond the boundaries of the sexually adventurous City by the Bay.

Source: COMES NATURALLY #151 by David Steinberg
Full much larger article at Sept 2004 SF Strip Club Update

May 2003 -  Great overview of Market Street Cinema from Stevi Secret, porn star and frequent featured dancer at MSC.

Sorry the rest of  this report is so old.  However many guys ask me about some of my high touch intimate yet non-sexual dance techniques.  This report is where I tried to describe in great detail my techniques.  The report was one of my first, back in 1998 so it is not laid out well as my later reports are, but may still be worthwhile reading for those interested in caring touch techniques I enjoy with dancers.

Lap Dancing Hints for Men who seek to share more good touch intimacy with dancers
My May 26, 1998 San Francisco Experiment by Dave in Phoenix

Note For Some Good and Very Bad Reactions to this review see end of report.

For those that haven't seen previous posts of my particular odd interests there are discussed at length at http://sexwork.com/dancers/stripclubs.html "The Strip/Nude Dance Club Scene A Different Perspective - How To Enjoy High - Touch, Non-Sexual Intimacy, Not Just Bodies As Sex Objects

Simply stated I have virtually zero interest in being teased by sexy bodies on a stage or gyrating pelvic thrusts of a lap dance. However, I enjoy taming a dancer and getting a favorable reaction to what I call "loving touch". Over the years I have become very popular at two Phoenix nude clubs and it is certainly not for any money. I have never tipped a dancer and in Phoenix the dancer only gets $3-$4 from a $20-25 lap dance. I recommend generous tipping by others but I do it more as a social experiment where I am in a more of a "love" mode more than a "sex" mode. At some of the Phoenix clubs hostesses often have to take a waiting list of dancers that want to be with me. I share many of my experiences in Phoenix clubs at http://www.sexwork.com/dancers/phxnudeclubs.html

My point is to share ideas for other men who might enjoy tips of sharing good touch with dancers and treating them with loving tenderness as a person and not just as a sex object to get stimulated by. The response to from like-minded men has been fabulous which has encouraged me to share my ideas more broadly.

In the alt.sex.strip-club newsgroup I got involved in some discussions of "Stuff dancers Like" and was surprised at the hostile attitude of some men who were apparently insecure and made fun of my ideas. Being a macho stud is much more in than being interest in loving intimate but non-sexual touch for some men. There is also a very active group of great guys from San Francisco that discuss the many great clubs there who also seemed to ridicule my ideas.

Therefore, as an experiment I decided to go to San Francisco and with dancers I never had met to try some of my intimacy techniques and see what results could be had. I was pleasantly surprised by the very favorable results, which I will describe in detail in this report. I will probably be flamed by the macho studs but that is OK, since I know there are men that will appreciate these ideas to have more meaningful relationships with dancers that just to be turned on sexually or enjoying their sexy dances viewing them as sex objects. There is nothing wrong with this common male macho attitude.

Some of you men are much better intimate loving toucher's than I am I'm sure. Many of you also have the advantage of being younger and more attractive than I am. I'm twice the age of most of the dancers, graying with a slightly paunchy midriff. I don't offer much money or physical attractiveness. I offer something very different and it's enjoyable to see what reactions I get from various dancers. I also enjoy finding dancers that are naturally more intimate probably with most men. My interest in relating to dancers in not any better than anyone else's. It is simply an alternative I encourage men to learn if they want more intimate, high-touch non-sexual interactions with some wonderful attractive women.

Off To San Francisco

I arrive in San Fran to experiment with dancers on Memorial Day and attend a business meeting on Tuesday. I had outstanding interactions with some dancers at both Market Street Cinema (MSC) and Crazy Horse (CH). I had not nearly as good of results at New Century Theatre (NC) with one outstanding exception. On Monday I rotated between MSC and CH meeting many dancers on both the day and evening shift. Even though it was a holiday there were a large number of dancers and customers at MSC and CH. On Tuesday afternoon after my meeting and in the evening I met many dancers at NC.

Market Street Cinema

Only having been to Mitchell Bros 10 years ago, I didn't know quite what to expect when I arrived. As I stood in back getting familiar with the scene Mimi delightfully approached me for a $20 wall dance. I had heard about these but never had done one so I did with Mimi. Mimi was great but it confirmed for me that I was much more interested in $10 laps where I could actually do more of my touch technique than I could with wall dancing. Later Mimi also did a very nice lap dance with me when I returned at night. The story gets much more interesting however, as I get more use to the routine and meet many more dancers.

Before going into specific details of my experiences at MSC it may be helpful if I share my classification of dancers and describe as best I can some of my favorite techniques with different typical lap dance positions. Any man can learn these techniques or you may have others you prefer that our just as nice.

Classification of lap dancers

I classify dancers and women in general into three categories. The first is those only comfortable with emotionally detached mechanical interaction who save any deeper connection for their "real" relationships. The second type, which I very much enjoy, are those that are naturally good at high-touch intimacy and sensuality which is so much more than groping at your crotch or fiddling with your nipples! This second type is wonderfully more intimate with most customers. The third type of dancer I found are those with which I really a strong connection with who not only may have been naturally intimate but expressed their delight at my techniques often wanting to know much more about me. I never initiated any verbal discussion but just "talked" with my hands unless they started asking about where I leaned such good techniques etc. This last group stayed with me a much longer than the normal time and seemed genuinely interested in me because of my touch techniques in our brief time together. So the categories are mechanical, naturally intimate and dancers I seem to have a strong connection with.

Description of my Touch Techniques

Most dancers start out thinking you want a high pelvic movement lap for sexual stimulation and usually start off this way. Without saying a word but by communicating only with my touch about 80% of the time I can "tame" the wild gyrating dancer into a tender pussy cat (no pun intended for pussy) often complete with "purring" sounds of enjoyment.

Occasionally the dancer will ask what I like before she begins. I say I'm not into gyrating pelvises but I'm more of a caresser and cuddler. I believe every dancer I said this to responded with something like "that's what I prefer too" and some add "but most men want more wild laps."

As in my experience in Phoenix many dancers commented how they wish their boyfriends would touch them like I do. So the ideas I share are even more appropriate for girlfriends and wives. But lap dancers offer a way to experiment with touch and have some good human soul-to-soul interaction with some responsive dancers. But other dancers are only comfortable being more mechanical and not having any real connection with their customers.

I have developed non-sexual touch techniques for the 3 basic positions that lap dancers typically are in during laps realizing the physical limitations of this being done on a theatre seat in public.

  • Position #1 - Butt in your lap with back to you or the reverse variation facing you straddling your legs.

  • Position #2 - The cuddle position where the dancer is sitting sideways in your lap.

  • Position #3 - Lying on her back in your lap. This is my favorite position which is usually done by more experienced dancers who also trust you since it is probably the most vulnerable position for them to be in.

  • Position #4 (Not done in San Fran and can't do in a chair.  But enjoy doing on a bench or wider seat like at Blue Moon in Phoenix)  Dancer lays down on me face down her body over my lap. I love doing slow, as deep as the dancer likes, massage into the various good pressure points along the back, spine, butt and upper legs, combined with tender soft stokes all over her body with gentle cuddles and hugs tossed in. Any man can learn to do this, and it is very much enjoyed by dancers.

Let me also be clear that nothing I do is genitally sexual (with one slight modification of one dancer who insisted with her hands, which I'll discuss later). I'm not interest in a feel and never enter the vagina at clubs nor touch breasts unless the dancer is topless and I'm invited to. In non-club situations I also teach G-spot massage to couples and enjoy sharing with women who want me to.

position #1

In position #1 I basically am limited to doing complete back massage alternating with light caring strokes of the back, sides and outer legs. 15 years ago I took professional Esalen massage classes for the sole purpose of learning how to provide women good physical as well as emotionally caring massage. The basic idea of Esalen massage is to combine good physical kneading with more loving strokes that are intended to relate to the emotions and spirit as well as the physical body. I teach massage workshops for couples, have helped sexual abuse victims by replacing bad touch experiences with good etc. It is sensual but totally non-sexual. See http://www.sexwork.com/subcontents/esalen.html - Esalen Massage It's So Nice To Be Kneaded if you want to learn more.

My massage is usually very slow and working as deep as I am feeling the women wants. I can feel her tight spots and often I get comments like "how did you know I was so tight there?" I have special techniques for the neck, shoulders, along the traps and down the spine. Many women also have lower back tightness but you have to know where to apply pressure and where not to go too deep. I also enjoy the usually very favorable reaction to slowly massaging the primordial tail area. This is very sensual for the women whether she has clothes on or not. It is where the sexual nerve endings from the vaginal area connect to the lower spine and can be very sensual/sexually stimulating. Since few women have experienced it before, I often get interesting reactions. Men get a similar sensation. I also enjoy doing it in a stand up hug and the women usually melts into my arms.

The problem with position #1 is that the dancer may enjoy it so much so often is in a trance and I prefer she not just be stuck in this position but also move on to the other typical positions - since I have different treats in store for her if she does!

While I usually get very good response and verbal comments, on rare occasions I can't tell for sure if she is really enjoying it or not since I'm not getting any response verbally or from body language. With one dancer (Egyptian) she really wanted me to go much deeper than I usually do and was in sort of this trance. With another young dancer (forgot name) at MSC I wasn't getting any response at all other than she kept up her pelvic grind staying in position #1 without any interruption the entire time. I wasn't sure if she was really liking the touch or not. But at the end she looked at me in the eyes and said, "I want you to know I really appreciated that." To me that comment is much more satisfying to me than being sexually stimulating by a naked body or grinding pelvis.

But I enjoy the other positions also. Alleysa had a very tight neck but also did the other positions as well.

I'm still not clear how long a $10 lap is supposed to last. The few mechanical dancers seemed to be for one song or so but most of the dancers stayed for two or three. I suspect the guideline is one song but it is really up to the dancer.

In the reverse position #1 facing towards me I also enjoy doing some pectoral massage. This provides some nice breast stimulation without touching the breasts themselves or having to be topless. I combine this with light soft touches above the breasts that most dancers seem to like

In topless situation I have some other breast techniques far more enjoyable to many dancers than the typical groping and grabbing most dancers experience. Many dancers tell me I should teach their boyfriends good breast techniques.

Cuddle Position #2 Experiences at MSC

Some dancers who are more naturally intimate enjoy this position and I provide nice tender squeezes and strokes. Ariel at MSC wins my award for the best cuddler but it was a very close contest since others were very good also. The Chinese dancer gengen is probably the most sensual dancer but she is in a category all by herself. More on gengen later. I suspect all the good cuddlers are naturally intimate and do this with most all men.

Lying in Lap Face Up Position #3

I suspect this is part of the standard routine for many dancers and next to being massaged it seems to keep dancers with me the longest time enjoying it. The techniques are easier to do than explain but involve hand caresses, slow soft body strokes, light pectoral strokes, along arms etc. My favorite technique is face work. I have sort of a face fetish which about 75% of dancers enjoy. If I'm not getting immediate positive feedback by body language or.. purring…or "oh yes", I try and always ask if they enjoy having their face caressed. About 25% do not like it since they are sensitive and face may break out etc. But for many stroking the face, massaging temples, stroking hair, earlobes and neck is very enjoyable to many women.

At MSC it was so dark and dancers were coming at me for $10 laps so fast I was bad at recording in my little notepad or remembering names. I tried to record those I enjoyed the most but missed some. But include in those I especially enjoyed are Mimi, -gengen, Ariel, Alleysa, Egyptian, Koola, Aurora, Lana, Nancy and wonderful Michelle in Sin City (more on that later). One of those may have been at Crazy Horse instead of MSC my notes are not that clear. I'll get to CH later.

gengen A Special Class

gengen  was a special experience. I didn't pay much attention to the stage dancing since that was really not my interest. But Chi-Chi got my attention by her freedom of expression and enthusiasm in her stage dancing. She seemed to very much enjoy her nudity. Her dance expressed "freedom for the bonds of our sexual/nude hang-ups which is so nice to see. I particularly liked how she seemed to enjoy going into the audience and lie her nude body in customer's laps. She also seemed to have the happiest smile in the "line up" of dancers when introduced.

gengen also wins my award for the most sensual $10 lap dance and she also stayed a long time. I'm sure she does this with all customers, she seems to be so naturally intimate, but she really knew how to do a sensual lap. No she didn't grab my penis or crotch but she knew how to use her body against mine (not just gyrating pelvic thrusts that most dancers do) for great sensuality. With most other dancers other than the position they choose, I was sort of in control in the sense that I knew what to do with may hands and they mostly relaxed (after I tamed a few) and enjoyed it, like I want them to. But with gengen  it was more we both knew how to be sensual and it was more a mutual dance with her mostly in control but responding very favorably to my response back. She would be great for shy men that want a good sensual experience. She was really good in both the cuddle position and position #3. She also kept gently moving my hand down to her vaginal area. I didn't think you were suppose to do that in the public area (or anywhere else) so I hesitated but she kept gently guiding my hand down there. I got the message that she wanted her outer vagina area massaged so I obliged! She seemed to obviously enjoy by her body movements. I never do this unless the dancer is directing me to do so.

In general, Asians are so wonderfully free from our cultural and religious hang-ups over sexuality. I've found many Asians are far more skilled at sensuality than most American women.

This was actually my 2nd $10 lap with gengen . She and two other dancers worked a split or overlapping shift and they came to me for laps on both the day and night shift.

My Journey to Sin City with Michelle

Most dancers gave me the big pitch to spend lots more money to simply have them nude. A few told me their $100 specials were guaranteed to make me cum. But at that price it doesn't make sense to me to get a hand job. For the same or less cost you could go to one of the many Asian massage places and have maybe a 45 minute massage with hand release or more. Or, for $150-$200 could spend an hour naked in bed with a women enjoying sensuality and full service. So $100 for a fast hand release didn't seem that good of a deal. I was satisfied with less sexual but more good touch $10 laps with a wide variety of dancers.

But for the sake of research - before I left I did pay the separate fee for "behind the stage" Sin City. I enjoyed a $60 nude session with Michelle. But other than being able to do my breast techniques which she said she enjoyed, it was basically the same thing I did in the $10 laps. Just being nude is no big deal with me since I'm so use to nudity with women. One advantage was that it was easier to talk without the blasting of the loud music in the theater where the only practical communications was mostly with my hands. Michelle discussed with me how few men have good touch and intimacy skills. The timing of her comments was perfect as in the next booth another dancer yelled four different times "you can't do that!" She then ended the session with the creep and kicked him out. We could hear the customer yelling all the way down the hall demanding his money back. They managers refused and told him to leave or they would call the police. Yes the dancers have to deal with all sorts of folks from nice men like you guys to the creeps that just want to grope.

On To CRAZY HORSE a few blocks away on Market

In some ways I preferred Crazy Horse even though it was twice the price it was worth it with some of the dancers. The layout is a long narrow theatre area. Since I had no interest in just staring at naked women, I sat on the bench in the back where I easily attracted many dancers.

I did $20 laps in the VIP room. With bench seating, instead of chairs it was easier to be in different positions. Most dancers were naturally intimate not just mechanical. Often the older dancers were more sensual. Included in my list of favorite dancers were Calypso, Tiran, and especially Simone and Brooke. I know I missed at least one other nice intimate dancer and exclude those that were just mechanical. With two of the dancers they insisted …almost on being topless as they started to enjoy my touch. Normally they charge another $20 for topless but they did it in the $20 lap simply because they liked my touch and I wasn't motivated to pay $20 just for topless.

An advantage of the VIP room is you can have good conversation without the blare of the music. I had some very good discussions of intimacy issues when some of the dancers started to ask questions of me in response to my touch. The usual wish to have boyfriends better at touch and how few customers have a clue. However, I was interested that one dancer said about 50 percent of customers are very nice often just want someone to talk with and aren't the macho or groping and grabbing type. This confirmed my ideal that because there are so many clubs for more intimate touch, and with the much more mature attitude towards sexuality in San Francisco vs. most other U.S. cities that it made sense that most guys were less desperate for sexual stimulation vs. in the Phoenix clubs where much less is typically available.

Again I wasn't clear how long the $20 VIP room laps were suppose to last. With two dancers they were with me about 30 minutes. With more mechanical dancers it seemed to be a two or three song routine. Just like at MSC it seems to be somewhat at the dancer's discretion. One dancers fantasy is to be with two men but her boyfriend would be too jealous so it must remain just a fantasy.

All these experiences at MSC and CH occurred on Monday Memorial Day, 1998 afternoon and evening. I was busy! Monday night I stayed at the Travel Lodge behind Mitchell Brothers. I never went to MB as I was there 10 years ago and for the high entry fee you get basically more exhibitionism with two women together, watching women masturbate etc none of which I have any interest in. The room at Travel Lodge was very small and noisy at $70/night + tax. On Tuesday I moved to the Days Inn next to the New Century Theater where the room was twice as large, King bed instead of single, clean and quiet. Was $90/night + tax.

The New Century Theater
Checked out the day shift Tuesday afternoon after my business meeting at Sir Francis Drake. I could hardly believed the cost of $24 to park for 3 hours at the fancy hotel!

All the dancers with one fabulous exception were more the mechanical types and the $20 laps were twice the price I was paying at MSC. Dancers enjoyed my massage and touch but mostly were less responsive and less intimate than at either MSC or CH. They mostly only used position #1. There was also much more high pressure for nude laps upstairs. There were only a few customers and 8-10 dancers.

One cute blond works here 2 weeks at a time but lives in Los Angeles. She much prefers the San Fran clubs since she can do much more. Once she realized she couldn't get me upstairs we had a nice discussion in the cuddle position. But she wasn't very intimate compared to what I experienced at MSC or CH, probably since I was so cheap…but still paying twice the price vs. MSC.

BUT THEN…..one of the best experiences of all was with Jxxxxx. I'm not giving complete name for a little privacy and not wanting her to get in trouble for how much time she spent with me. Jxxx was a perfect example of taming the tiger into a pussycat and moving to great intimacy and then meaningful discussion. She started out so wild her breasts knocked my glasses off! But with my touch I quickly tamed her..almost too much. She enjoyed my massage in position #1 and moved to position #3 for a long, long, long, time. I can enjoy giving sensual caring touch to a woman for hours but I was concerned she might get in trouble for staying so long. I used all my position 3 techniques over and over again. She was not particularly responsive but seemed to be sort of in a blissful trance. But I really didn't know how she was feeling except she kept in position #3. She seemed to enjoy by face cuddling etc. At times I wondered if she had fallen asleep but an occasional squeeze of her hand was nicely returned so I knew she was alive!

After 4 different dancers doing three songs each she came out of her blissful trance and said "that was really nice". Then for two more dancers' three songs each we had a wonderful discussion of personal issues until she had to go to stage dance. She said if I stuck around she would like to talk to me more. She seemed too young to have had so much experience but she used to work at Mitchell Bros, then left the city and worked in New York and New Orleans and now returned working at NC until she could return to Mitchell Bros.

I carry with me some envelopes with brochures about both my web sites sexwork.com and libchrist. com in case I meet someone where I get into a discussion of these issues and the dancer seems genuinely interested. I gave her one, which she seemed very interested in. The only other dancer I gave an envelope to was on at CH.

While Jxxx was dancing a couple more dancers approached me mostly with their pitch to go upstairs. I did a couple more laps only but they were quite mechanical. I then left since I had primed the San Francisco economy far more than I had planned with so many laps my experiment, while very enjoyable had become very expensive.

New Century Night Shift
Since my research project had become so expensive I almost decided not to spend any more money on it. But since the NC was next door to my hotel I did decide to check out the night shift. I also wanted to test whether or not I could get $10 laps that I did so well with at MSC with never a complaint about what I offered. I only assumed the laps were $20 since I asked a dancer when I first came in. But she knew I was new and may have quoted the preferred higher fee. To my surprise the first two dancers that approached me took my $10 deal. Both said how much they liked my massage but I didn't have any real intimacy connection with them. Then 2 others turned down my "I'm real cheap and only do $10 laps" offer.

Then came Precious!
Without a word Precious snuggled into my lap in the cuddle position and I started by thing. She seemed to enjoy and was very sensual in response. I admired her for her sales tactic - "give and hopefully money will be given onto you". She was doing a better preview lap for free then many others had done for $10-$20.

At the end of a full song she asked the usual "would you like some more company?" I said my usual "maybe but I'm cheap and only do $10 laps- which you really have already done". I was about to give her $10 for the "preview" but she insisted on doing another full round for $10. Obviously I didn't object. She was very nice.

Then she asked if I wanted more and I gave my usual response of "Your very nice but I'm only good for one and that has nothing to do with my sexuality". She said "That's fine" gave me a nice hug and was about to leave when I asked her to tell me more about the costs and benefits of the upstairs playroom. She said it was $40 for topless and $60 nude. For the sake of research I did a $40 round.

I'm glad I did! It was very nice. In fact I was hooked and wished I had done one with Jxxxx from the day shift. I also went to the playroom with Milan who just started at NC but was not at all shy! She has an interesting racial mix - African American, Cuban and American Indian. She is in college studying multi-cultural affairs and wants to work with Japanese. I also played with Missy and Nicole. They all did all three positions nicely, seemed to enjoy my touch but no real special intimate connections.

Again not knowing how much time they are suppose to spend I noted that Precious had spent about twice the amount of time in the playpen with me as the others. I suspect she really does enjoy the interaction with all men, not anything that special about me.

End Of Research Study
I had considered going to some of the North Beach clubs as well as Chez Paris but decided I had blown my budget too much already and had lots of data! I also considered going back to visit MSC and CH on Wednesday to see some of the dancers I enjoyed so much. I even thought of asking some if they new about the ASSC group. If so I might suggest they pass on that they had met me and share any reactions. I would have told them how my research was somewhat based on the skepticism of a few of my success having such good intimacy with some dancers. But for financial reasons I decided not to and the fact I don't really have to prove anything to anyone. I simply enjoy what I do and believe other men might enjoy some of my touch ideas. After I started to have such good response from some dancers when they asked my name I said slowly "Dave from Phoenix" so they might remember me from the zillions of other men they meet each night in case some of you want to ask about me.

Another reason for not revisiting some of the dancers is that it is frustrating for me to make some good connections when I don't live in San Francisco. It's great in Phoenix since I'm friends with many dancers I've gotten to know over time although you can't do as much in the Phoenix Clubs as in San Fran. I prefer the potential for more long-term relationships as a customer instead of the "one-night stands" when I'm out of town! We have lots of strip clubs in Phoenix but most are only for "gawking". Two however offer the type of high-touch intimacy I enjoy. But it is technically not legal in Phoenix which is a much more a sexually hung-up city that San Fran. Which is why I enjoyed San Fran in the 1980s when I attended about a dozen of Stan Dale, Human Awareness Institute, Love Sex and Intimacy workshops at Harbin. One dancer I met enjoys nudity and even has been to Harbin! (North of wine country just beyond Mt Helena, NE of San Fran). This is were I began to enjoy intimacy and more sensual sexuality so much. If interested in more info see: http://www.libchrist.com/background/hai.html

Point of All of This
I encourage men to be more aware of women's desire for better touch and intimacy skills from men. Many dancers in San Fran tell me exactly the same as dancers in Phoenix: How few men have good touch/sensual skills that women so much enjoy. I'm sure most of you are the exception. It is the same thing that wives tell me in Liberated Christian workshops about wishing that their husbands were more intimate. But we don't train in our culture good touch/intimacy skills and its not something that is just natural for most men. Lap dancing can be a "lab" to experiment with good touch ideas to be used in real relationships.

The point of this social experiment and the San Fran research was to show that even as an old man, graying, paunchy, not at all a young stud, I can illicit very positive response even on a just met basis by sharing techniques with lap dancers with many of them telling me they hardly ever experience such touch from most men, whether customers or boyfriends.

There is nothing wrong with being sexual. That is man's natural inclination with women. But I simply suggest that for some of us, learning good touch skills can wonderfully enhance our relationship with a wide variety of women.

Good Touch Workshop?
I'm even willing to do some sort of workshop for interested men if it can be practically arranged. A practical problem is organization, location and participants. A strip club is not a good place to try and lead a workshop since we need a more private quiet setting. A home is ideal. You also need women to practice with. If a group of men wanted to have a workshop with their girlfriends that would be ideal. Or, get some strippers who are open to the idea. I do need a willing body to demonstrate on! Participants could also share other intimacy ideas that they have found women enjoy. I certainly don't have all the skills. But so many women tell me that most men don't have a clue when it comes to the type of touch many women really enjoy this is why I am motivated to share whatever lessons I've learned over the years in interacting with women, leading couples intimacy groups and sharing the good touch I enjoy with so many nude and topless dancers - a good potential lab to explore and enhance skills.

Sample good and very bad reactions to my report:

From a man living in San Francisco
Law enforcement? Prostitution is illegal in SF, as it is all over the rest of the state and most of the country, but the current city administration seems to be taking the stand that if its off the streets, they will ignore it. As far as I know, there has never been a prostitution bust in any SF strip club, at least not for the last 10 years or so that I have paid attention to the scene. The number of street girls however, is far less than two and three years ago, before Willie took office.

From a Tucson man:
I just got done reading your report on "Dave's Lap Dancer Exp". It is true that men are mostly concerned with the physical contact with a pretty woman or a woman with a nice body.

Before I found I your web site and began reading the reviews, I would go to the usual topless bars here in Tucson to get a cheap feel from a dancer. However, since I started to get to know the dancers, I began to sense that most of them really are great people outside the club environment.

One particular night I went to TD's West here in Tucson and met what had to have been the prettiest dancer there by far. She didn't ask me for a dance, but rather sat down next to me and started talking. I was very surprised by what she had to say, and was most impressed by her confidence in her physical sexuality. Since then we have become good friends and usually have great conversations, and she said the same thing you mentioned in your report. Must of the girls know me at a few of the clubs around town and well come and chat awhile, usually a couple of songs before they offer me a dance. If I say no they stay for a couple of more songs and then be on their way before they come back for a new conversation. Now when ever I go to a club I think twice about who they are and what they do.

At the end of your report you mentioned that you may start a class involving massage techniques. I am interested in the class and would like to attend if you do get a class going.

From A Phoenix Man:
That was a great report, and you research seems to have paid off well. While I too like to caress as much as possible, you do make me envious of your abilities. I have seriously considered getting some real instruction (other than what I can find in a book) on massage techniques. Judging from the response I get from my limited ability, and from your story, any improvement should produce phenomenal results.

From A San Francisco Man:
Dave, You mentioned your age and your paunchy midriff. Any woman worth her salt who actually looks at men's behavior will say that a certain amount of genuine gentleness and masculine sensuality will be a bigger draw than a mans immediate physical appearance. It seems that Asian women are especially sensitive to this sort of non verbal body language! In short, even if professional ( sex tourist related ) a mans interaction with a woman seems to be successful if he is caring in to her verbal language. Your posts seems to reflect this sort of practiced skill.

I am NOT recommending whippy behaviour. That goes over like three farts in church during easter sunday celebrations!

I only am raising this point since you seemed to be focusing a  little too much on some aspects of your physical appearance as a negative factor while not giving credit to some impressive non verbal skills you seem to have honed to a fine edge.

p.s. - I have had no problem getting bed partners with Chinese women, even though I am only average in appearance. The Chinese women I have known have turned down some 'hunks' who have the social graces of iguanas in favor of lesser endowed men who know something of the emotional needs of the women involved.

Dave's Reply: Thank you for your comments.  There are many nice sensitive men out there which as you point out is far different than being "whippy".  I only mentioned my age/appearance to prove the good point that you make - that hunkiness is not the key to a women's heart, but for most women fulfilling emotional needs such as via good touch as well as being an interesting conversationalist and being sincerely interested in the woman as a person not just a sex object.  I also enjoy long hours of loving sexuality which I hope to experiment with more in Asia since it is so much less expensive than in the U.S. I have almost given up on finding open minded more sensuous American women that I'm also attracted to.

When I go to Asia hopefully this year, I'm concerned about the language issue, which is why I will probably go to the Philippines rather than Thailand since English is more common.  I'm not good at learning languages - I have enough trouble with English!

Thanks again for your insightful comments.   Dave

Dave, HI! :-) I just read with some interest your article about going to San Francisco and your experience with providing sensual massage and touching techniques on some of the dancers.

I would love to be able to do the same thing here in Seattle, but with laws in many counties requiring a minimum distance of 4 feet between dancer and customer or other non-touch laws it is near impossible to find a dancer who will risk her job and even jail to let some man touch her in any way. During laps and table dances you must keep your hands at your sides... Kind of discouraging to say the least...

I feel a lot of the problem is too many men want to grab their breasts and genital area... I don't blame the women for looking at most of the customers as jerks and creeps. But I would love to be able to give the dancers as much pleasure as they give me with there intimacy.  Anyway...maybe one day I will get to go to San Francisco and experience what you did... Til then... Peace.

Just like in Phoenix which passed a new ordinance, which is common in many cities, trying to outlaw such wholesome interaction by keeping dancers at a distance from customers.

As expected in a shame-based, anti-sex society, tease and titillation of body parts is much more politically acceptable than good touch and mature human interaction. The ACLU obtained an injunction prohibiting the new laws’ implementation for two years. However on December 5, 1995, it became effective and then was appealed again. The private dances have not changed much but stages had to add silly barriers to keep dancers farther away from customers. That's the mentality of politicians. I suppose they think AIDS is going to jump out from the men to the dancer...or hands...that terrible taboo of touch the politicians fear when what we need is more good human touch not less. The bouncers will kick out anyone trying to be sexual, so we don't need repressive laws. The dancers now have to be licensed by the city like they are potentially dangerous to the morality of the community!

It's the community and these laws that are sick and dangerous. The same applies to the prostitution laws. If single men could get their natural drive for sex satisfied by sex workers there would be less violence and sexual crimes.

But most people in our sexually immature society just don't get it. In the clubs I review, there is no prostitution, only good touch and great nonsexual intimacy available.

Original Person Replies:
I totally agree.... I can understand the reluctance for communities to start allowing physical contact between dancers and customers because they think its the opening of the door to prostituion, gangs and drugs... Only because that is what they hear in the media and from the politicians who believe most people are puritanical blue noses.

But if a club is well run with good bouncers to protect the dancers from unwanted touches then I feel its no one elses business what goes on between the dancers and the customers.

Look at Amsterdam where almost anything is legal... The rates of sex crimes is much lower than in London, a city of comparable size... Why? I think because the people are raised in a atmosphere of sexual repression in London... Anyway... Now I am gonna have to get out to some strip clubs outside of Seattle and King County and find out what the dancers think of being massaged and caressed in a non sexual, non threatening way... I feel alot of the problem is too many men want to grab their breasts and genital area... I dont blame the women for looking at most of the customers as jerks and creeps. But I would love to be able to give the dancers as much pleasure as they give me with there intimacy.

I wanted to tell you about a dancer I met in Kalamazoo Michigan a couple weeks ago when I visited a Deja Vu club.... First off let me say this was a non-contact club except during topless dances. THen the dancers would rub your with parts of their bodies but nothing overtly sexual.

Plus I had to keep my hands at my sides at all times... Anyway, this one dancer I didnt get to meet until I had been in the club for several hours, since she was busy in the VIP rooms most of the night. She came up to me and told me she was very interested in talking to me cause she thought I had a very expressive face. She was very nice and I got several dances from her..Her name was Alex and I talked to her alot and she told me she felt very comfortable with me that I wasnt like the usual guys she meets who just want to get away with as much as they can and not talk to her at all except to tell her how much they like her tits, etc... the usuall crap... Well, she had just had a baby a few months before this and she still had evidence of the stretch marks on her tummy which she had kept covered all night with a white lacy wrap, tied around her middle... Anyway, I told her to let me see and she finally did and I reached out and touched her gently, stroking her tummy and smiling into her eyes..I told her not to be ashamed of that cause she is a mommy and she earned every one of those marks and I thought they were beautiful and natural like she was.. Well, she just beamed and after that didnt want to leave me for the rest of the shift.. a couple more hours... It was a very nice time...

For more sample good replies to these ideas from a men that enjoy sharing sensual touch with dancers see: http://sexwork.com/dancers/stripclubs.html

Unfortunately I must not have communicated in my report very well to some.
Follows is a public discussion I (DAVE) had with an upset reader (EYE) on alt.sex.strip-clubs and my replies. It starts out very attacking but finishes with good discussion. Pardon EYE's language, it is not mine.

EYE: <DGBrooks@ix.netcom.com> wrote: There's no conversation to be had with you, Loser. You issue your manifestos from up on your Godly perch and we hurl chunks in response. Deal with it.

DAVE: Ok I respect your opinion.

EYE: "caring", my butt! Dancers are there to earn an honest living, and you totally rip them off with your non tipping policy..... and have the nerve to BRAG about it here.

DAVE: No I don't BRAG about it. I only mention it since in Phoenix some dancers enjoy good touch over just tips. I never recommend this for anyone else. I spend a fortunate as it is with dance fees.

At sexwork.com I say:
PAY A FAIR PRICE FOR GOOD TOUCH LIKE GOOD FOOD Sharing good nonsexual touch for its medical as well as emotional benefits is just as important as attractive food. Just like you go to a good restaurant, and pay a fair price for beautifully prepared food, you should be willing to support clubs and dancers by paying a fair tip to have important touch needs met by an attractive woman.

Regarding my tipping I don't brag about it, don't recommend to others and say:
TIPPING - The dancers at all the clubs make most of their money by tips. However, since I am only looking for dancers that honestly do enjoy my touch, as a test of their sincerity I never tip dancers. Yet I am very popular at many clubs. I DO NOT recommend this non-tipping for others. I do it more as a social experiment. Because I meet so many dancers it is very expensive for me even without tipping. Sadly the dancers hardly make any money from me, so of course some dancers are not interested in me. But many dancers prefer a good neck/back massage and good touch to just good tips. It's my way of finding dancers to whom I can give something that they enjoy more than just tips. BUT please men...do tip generously.

EYE: Oh yeah, you pay the management pimps the standard rate, of which they keep 80%, and that clears your vacant conscience while you perform your ritual molestation. Dancers are mere chattel to you, desparate sharecroppers of their own bodies which you plunder with your greedy meathooks in the name of Jesus Christ.

DAVE: I respect your opinion but if you ever read anything I actually say on sexwork.com I don't see how on earth you can say I think of dancers as chattel. My whole point is to relate to them as warm spirits as I discuss not as sex objects.

It's so sad you think nice touch is molestation. You must have been badly sexually abused as a child to think that way. I hope you get some help.

EYE: Fucking blasphemer racist hypocrite!

DAVE: I do wish you could clean up your language and just attack me with mature discussion instead of throwing a tantrum. Are you capable of that?

EYE: Good discussion??? oh god yer dumb as a speedbump. When are you going to start to realize what an absolute BAD joke you are around here? It's not sinking in at all, is it?

DAVE: Yes, I realize some folks are only interested in women as body parts and using such language makes them feel big and macho. I simply am different, which isn't better, just different in how I express myself and the interests I have regarding strip dancers.

Best wishes,


EYE <DGBrooks@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

DAVE: Some good intelligent discussion instead of just ranting. Thank You.

EYE: In case it needs to be pointed out here, we are not engaged in a test of wills between the loving touch proponents vs. the grab and grope proponents.

DAVE: Exactly. As I said in my SF report a number of times, there is nothing wrong with the grab and grope folks. My purpose was simply to share my experiences with more loving touch and that many dancers respond so well to it. I simply encourage men who might wish to try it and learn such skills if they are so inclined. I realize the main attitude at strip clubs is obviously more sexual. Again all I'm trying to do is show that such clubs can be worthwhile for us that enjoy sharing more loving good sensual (but not having to be sexual) touch. And it is simply a fact that many dancers express their delight and desire that other men would do it more, including their boyfriends. That is why I try and encourage men to try it if they wish and I try and share my ideas learned over many years.

EYE: I don't represent some imaginary conflicting school of thought on how to treat dancers at their place of employment. In fact, I think it's very nice that you are at one with Barry White,

DAVE: Whose Barry White?

EYE: and I don't doubt for a minute that given the choice between your approach and that of the drunken roustabout variety, any sensible dancer would opt for the tenderness route. I wish they'd have a slow dance night at my local dive so I could waltz my way into nirvana with the independent contractor of my choice.

DAVE: Well said.

EYE: So what's my beef?

DAVE: Good, lets discuss it like adults who can respect differences in ideas.

EYE: That you find it necessary to represent yourself as the force of light and goodness, thereby casting your audience as unenlightened boors in need of a droning how-to approach to human interaction. It is condescending at best, and in fact is typically insulting, especially when you introduce your less than dignified racial stereotypes into the mix.

DAVE: Thank you for expressing your reaction so well.

My intent was not to come across this way. I said a number of times in my review that I realized many men were much better at good touch then I am. In reviewing some of the more intimate dancers I said, I thought they were the same with most men, not just me (the naturally intimate). I showed a few examples of dancers that I seemed to especially connect with to show, not that there is anything so great about me (I mentioned I'm certainly not that attractive) but the reaction was from the touch/intimacy ideas that I tried to share in hopes that some other men who have not yet explored that aspect of their sensuality might be encouraged to do so. That was my purpose not to be condescending or to represent myself as the force of light and goodness,

As much as I tried not to sound that way, I must have to some folks for which I apologize. That was clearly not my intent. My interest is simply promoting the ideas of move good touch intimacy for those men who might find it of interest. Again as I said many times, there is nothing wrong with not having that interest.

I am somewhat outspoken on this issue due to the change it made in my own life. Learning these ideas (via many HAI workshops at Harbin N of San Francisco in the 80s, as I discuss on my background page on the web, transformed me from a very insecure, scared of women basket case which repelled most women, to where I am today. For some that is terrible since I'm perceived as just a selfish know-it-all. So somehow my intent is not getting across. So that is my fault the responsibility for which accept. I wish I had learned 20 years ago what I know today regarding women. But I had to experience it the hard way with lots of rejection, insecurity and loneliness since I was simply needy and scared of women. I never dated or went to a dance until I was a junior in college. That was many many years ago since I am 51 now.

Perhaps my enthusiasm for how I view women and relationships today makes me too outspoken and sounding like God's gift to women. That is clearly not my intent.

I do appreciate the opportunity to have a civil discussion with folks if they don't agree with me or how I present my ideas.