Scams in Phoenix Discussion - Scam Provider Murdered by Knife to Chest

Scams in Phoenix Discussion  Highlights 10/01 after much discussion of who quotes $250 for FS but defines FS as a handjob and providers insist on twice the fee for honest FS. Or the $250 is agency fee, services are negotiable but a caller is told its only $250 for all.  Of course this isn't as bad as the many cash and dash services but typical of the dishonesty the legal situation in the U.S. encourages.

Dave in Phoenix said:
I wonder if they get a large percentage of men to pay up to the bait and switch scam rate, so they make more money, and don't care that the customer is upset with the scam.

Or are the women not wanting to do what is quoted. If not they shouldn't be in the business to start with.

What attracts women to these scams or worse, cash and dash? Do they hate men that much they want to get back at them?

Or, maybe they are high on drugs and could care less, or desperate for more drug money and could care less how they get the money by scam or not?

I find exploring the emotional/motivation issues interesting. Especially since one of the scammers Jenn, had some good reviews as a nice person. What makes these folks work for such an agency?

And of course the providers are at risk by doing the scams, as we were sadly reminded a few weeks ago when a man murdered with a military knife stab to the chest a scam provider. Obviously this is tragic and the man will probably face life in jail. I would rather try and understand the motivation and emotional feelings of the scammer, certainly never worth being injured or worse over.

Studies show the more sexual repressive laws in a culture or religious beliefs the more violent the culture. With the U.S. one of few countries in the world where sexual healers are illegal, it is no wonder we are such a violent culture.

BTW, sexworkers have confirmed their Muslim clients say the words to make them "wife for an hour" so not breaking sexual laws. Even in Iran and other strict Muslim countries there is the practice of taking "temporary wives" Folks who want to be with each other can enter into a ORAL legal contract by reciting a few sentences, which has to specify the length of the proposed union (which can last from a few minutes to 99 years) The legal arrangement is to allow people to do what's considered natural & normal, but within a legal framework which minimizes potential harms to society and third parties.

And of course most of the "modern" world except the U.S. has long ago decriminalized sexwork between consenting adults done in private (not streets). That is why I enjoy Canada so much which is similar to most of Europe and the rest of the world, except the U.S. where the religious right controls laws that are sexually repressive, and in my view contribute to our violent culture.

End of sermon....preaching to the choir..except for LE that has been known to read these posts for years.

PS since we know LE is seeing these posts, I also wonder why a cop would stoop so low to ruin lives of honest sexual healers providing since a needed service. Of course all my discussion here is simply a fantasy since I do not promote anything illegal in the U.S...which is why I promote legal options in Canada and the rest of the world but not in the U.S. since we have Taliban like laws against sexual healers and providers - these repressive laws contributing to our violent sexually frustrated culture.

At least unlike in Afghanistan, we do have First Amendment Free speech rights still, so we can talk about these issues and even discuss illegal healthy services .. legally.

JustJack replies: (quoted with his permission)
I worked in the business for years, as a driver and then as the guy in charge-I watched this business from the inside and from every possible angle-watched girls walk in one way and leave changed forever by the experience for longer than I care to remember.

Forgive the generalizations-I'm well aware this isn't every provider and every agency of course-but even those who take exception to the characterization for themselves will admit it's bang on for others they know in the biz. And even if this is them, no active provider is gonna fess up, cause it's bad for business.

Some thoughts:

You're young and feeling invincible, broke, unmotivated, lazy. You really don't want to sell yourself for money (as our society has so stigmatized sexuality-but Dave speaks better on this than I) but you're desperate, or maybe you're attraced to the thrill of it all. Maybe you got a habit to support (don't worry if you don't, a few months in the business and you probably will, just to deal with it everyday) Whatever.

You go to an agency-where rule one is: ALWAYS GET THE FEE. Send whoever you have, whoever you can get, get a body to the door to get the cash. Sell them Marilyn Monroe, send them Marilyn Manson, just get the money.

You gotta lie, cheat, steal, strongarm the guy, you don't walk out the door without the agencies money. Or you;re done. As for your money-that's on you...screw the guy, rob the guy, con the guy, beat the hell out of the guy. Whatever it takes.

You're not too keen on screwing strangers, seems like the best thing to do is to trick the guy into paying you for nothing, get him in the shower and steal his wallet and run, get him naked and have the goon outside beat the door in and run. Promise the world, get the guy to get himself off and be happy with it. First time it works, you decide it's the way to go-do as little as possible for as much money as possible.

Need justification for doing this to people? Well look at these guys, gotta pay some girl to come do them, what kind of lowlifes are these guys anyway? I don't care about these slugs. Disgusting losers, I hate these guys, but I need their money to if they get robbed or beat or scammed, they get what they deserve for being such pervs in the first place. I'm smarter than these morons, after all, they're forking over money for me, right? And they're too embarrassed that I beat them to do anything about it, like come after me or call the cops.

The Agency just wants it's money, They don't care if I scam their clients, there's enough naive locals and clueless tourists coming in every day to go forever ripping people off, aren't there? Why should I put myself out? At least I'm not doing them-cause that's wrong and illegal...

JustJack also says:
It's about the dollars: Scam services know they can make money off the endless stream of uninformed and new out of towners that come to town literally forever (till LE shuts them down or one of their girls gets killed/beaten/raped-and that will only slow them down). It's why agencies proliferate in season and thin out in the summer. Hire some girls who know how to scam, run an ad and the money comes in, hit while seasons good, bail when things slow down or the heat gets on. Repeat next season. But it's certainly way more dangerous than doing it right and building a core group of happy clients, building your reputation and your clients lists with positive word of mouth and creating a steady year round money flow.

That's where the sense comes in: many agency owners don't have it. It takes much more effort and customer skills and flat business savvy for a service to maintain a loyal and happy customer base than it is to go along ripping endless new people off, burning each new bridge as you come to it. Till you run out of bridges, which in a tourist town you just won't. It's as hard to make a Skybox, for example, work as it is to make a restaurant or a clothing store or any other "legit" business. People who are successful running good honest escort agencies would be successful anywhere-cause they have business sense.

Dave in Phoenix says:
Fortunately not all providers are scams. Some actually look at sexwork as the healing profession I believe it can and should be (nothing wrong with just enjoying sex either).

For all the bad apples and gals with the attitudes you so well described, that most tourists and inexperienced locals get scammed by, there are also the affordable Skylor's (skybox) etc and the many more private affordable providers, who would not want to be mentioned here. Ironically, often the honest ones cost less than the scams! And the honest providers get happy clients and repeat business vs having to find new suckers all the time.

Almost seems like a war between good and evil in the battle which started it seems with Skylor vs her partner who was behind some less than honest ideas such as having fake fantasy girls on websites not the real ones that would be available. As I recall he admitted to this bait and switch tactic here. Now he is showing the evil side of the business with his agency with lies about prices and proper terms, and Skylor continues her honest ways.

Skylor Says
Thank you Dave. Im not the wealthiest agency owner in the world, but the happiest.

10/14/01 Phoenix Escort stabbed to death
I assume this was a cash and dash gal that upset the client. Shows how dangerous cash and dash can be but cops seem more anxious to catch honest escorts.

As reported in Az Republic:
Kimberly Rowe, 35, an escort, was stabbed to death by a large military combat knive to the chest in the 2700 block of West Sahuaro Drive about 9:15pm Friday night. Police arrested Gene Foret, 51, who became abusive over whether or not they were going to have sex. Kimberly fled the apartment in her underwear followed by Foret, who stabbed her, police said.

10/16/01 Update on Kimberly Rowe the escort murdered last week
She had escort licenses for the following agencies: A1, A1 College Babes Full Service and A1 Full Service Escort

It is believed she worked alone, either cash and dash with a driver or she may have done the usual low ball quote and when the guy found it how much it would really cost him, went berserk. Chased and murdered her with a combat knive to the chest as reported last week and in the Az Republic.

A terrible tragedy but horny, sexually frustrated men thinking they paid for sex and than upset when don't get it can sadly ignite rage. Certainly no justification.

Thankfully so many providers see it as a healing profession and are honest. Studies show the more sexually repressed a culture the more violent it tends to be. Hopefully not to this extreme, but this isn't the first time a customer has become violent from being ripped off, especially if sexually frustrated.