Discussion of GFE and Old Dave's Response :(
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Michael <eroshands@y...> wrote:
> O.K. Here is what I am saying. If a HARD and FAST rule
> were in effect that providers advertising GFE would
> provide BBBJ and DFK, there would be no confusion,
> would there? HOWEVER if you say that the definition
> was that there is "more" intimacy or its just an
> attitude thing or any crap like that, you don't have a
> clue what the advertiser provides
I believe I was one of the first to coin and use the phrase GFE way back
before there was much of a web - there was the alt.sex.prosititution
newsgroup which we read by packet readers at the amazing speed of 120
cps (without a k) and it took many minutes to download a single message.
Then there was the old Prodigy boards on those very slow dial ups long
before Yahoo or many websites. Then websites developed and I first coded
libchrist.com having to know raw html code, not the lazy way
today...although I would never want to go back to hand coding html.
Back in those days we respected providers and would never think of
having unhealthy bareback oral or any kind of unhealthy sex. And this
was before the HIV scares (which isn't really much risk in heterosexual
sexwork, but lots of other nasty STD's are). Many of us seek the GFE
experience which means a real relationship for the moment with a sincere
women who enjoys the experience, not just mechanical sex.
Now you and some young on's come along and expect to totally change the
definition for your own selfish, unsafe, ...pardon the expression
Many of us prefer what you call crap to having a women take the health
risks of unsafe sex which she may not even enjoy doing just to please
the Michael's that demand their selfish ways.
Fortunately I have seen a vast change in attitude about "intimacy crap"
over the years. When I use to do Canadian reports on the old Canada Best
board, there would be the responses of being sick and tired of all my
intimacy crap and real men just fxxk women and none of this intimacy
But over the years that has drastically changed and zillions of men
being more in tune with their more intimate side and find they enjoy it
far more than being the big macho sex stud.
It's been years since I've had that negative response on the boards I am
active on - Mostly Canadian - with my zillions of Canadian reviews since
I prefer for sexwork, to be in a country not run by the religious right
where consenting adults have the sexual freedoms we do not have in the
U.S. Not to mention far lower costs when you don't have the legal risk
Girl Friend Experience - Short definition
What it means to each person is a little different, but to most guys it
means a provider that makes the experience seem unrushed, enjoyable,
fun, relaxing and more like a "real date than a quick commercial
encounter. In practice, though, it seems to depend on chemistry,
personality and mutual expectations, as YMMV ("your mileage may vary")
for both the provider and client. A general description might be: a
session that facilitates the experience, mutual cuddling/foreplay,
mutual kissing, mutual oral sex (covered or uncovered--depending), and
involves either the illusion or reality of passion on the part of the
provider. Most of all its about being a sincere mutually desired human
interaction. It is the opposite of the women being treated like a sex
toy and the man an ATM machine.
Old Dave in Phoenix who enjoys intimacy more than hot sex.
Here is my vew of GFE which I realize is not shared
by all, that is fine, its just one view:
GFE by Dave in Phoenix
Many people in reviews public and private say they seek GFE
To me, GFE is "Girl Friend Experience" like renting a girl friend for
the hour instead of the more cold, detached "hooker" type pro. Obviously
many of us seek this GFE, not a pro like many in Nevada etc. Most
importantly, a GFE is natural, not mechanical or forced. No matter what
kind of play is desired it should feel like 'the real thing'.
But GFE is defined differently by different people. For me, GFE involves
having an emotional and intellectual connection with a provider like you
would with a real girlfriend, not just a body for physical sex. Some
define it by what things a provider will do such as kiss or if they will
do bareback (I don't recommend). But I've experienced very mechanical
kisses and relate it more to that "connection" on a deeper level than
only the body, even if only for the moment, is paid for and you may not
meet her again.
Often I have heard a provider reply to the question
"Are you GFE" with "You mean you want me to nag you a lot?"
I also relate to what I refer as a "universal love", which many people
just don't agree with our cultures definition of "love". GFE and "love"
can be for the moment, it doesn't have to result in "falling in love"
that many are so afraid of. It is more like standing in love of a unique
spirit of a person and seeking to express this Universal love by sensual
pleasure giving touch, sensuality and sexuality. But we are taught in
our culture "love" has to be exclusive and possessing another.
In the GFE I seek, I especially enjoy caring high touch intimacy,
stoking, massaging, holding her, caressing her trying to relate to her
inner spirit via high tender touch not a body to have sex with. Combine
this GFE intimacy and sensual sexuality and I really enjoy the
While there are exceptions, I find very few American providers offer
this. The attitude in the U.S. is often "oh, I save all emotions for my
boyfriend". This contrasts sharply with women I've met from many other
cultures, European, Latin America, Asian, that seem so much more open to
sharing GFE and the type of intimacy I enjoy.
The reasons are quite obvious. Most other cultures don't have the
repressive sexual attitudes that we do in the U.S. Often foreign women
are much more naturally open, intimate and provide easy GFE which is
often totally foreign to most U.S. sexworkers. Their are of course
exceptions of wonderful GFE providers in the U.S. and hard business only
pro foreign women. But in my "studies" of providers in various parts of
the world, as well as for example in Los Angeles and San Francisco,
where you have lots of foreign women at hostess and strip clubs etc., my
overwhelming experience is this obvious difference in cultures.
In response Caitlin a Phoenix sexworker said:
"While I have not advertized myself as GFE, that is what many of my
clients have experienced. To me it is a question not of what you do, but
how you do it. It definitely involves some kind of "connection," as Dave
When I'm with a client, I genuinely want both of us to have a good time.
I usually manage to find something (or a lot) about their personality
that I like, which makes it more fun for me. GFE definitely means no
clock watching, filling out the hour if he finishes early, a massage if
he wants it, things like that.
A GFE may or may not include kissing. I like what CJ said about earning
a kiss. If it doesn't happen on the first date, don't despair, it might
happen on subsequent dates. If there is no genuine desire in me to give
you a kiss, it will be mechanical. I always appreciate a client who lets
me kiss him first before he kisses me.
It seems to me a GFE is rather indefinable. Everyone has a different
idea about it. That emotional connection is an intangible, and there is
no guarantee that you and your provider will experience it. And one
needn't have a FS provider to achieve that either."
Dave says, that was a great response from Caitlin, who I thank for her
input (reposted with her permission)
More good thoughts:
by St. Louis Guy:
"GFE is one thing to one person, another thing to another, but I know
from experience, that you can share an hour (or most times less) with a
very beautiful woman and feel totally ripped off afterwards, mainly due
to a "get it over" attitude, which says, "Hurry up, pay me, and I'm
outta here!!" Those experiences, widely experienced in Vegas and other
markets with certain agencies or individual providers really suck,
especially when you pay higher dollar. The best GFE is the girl or woman
who treats you in a relaxed, human (not mechanical) manner, and
responds. She doesn't have to kiss, but many do, and safe sex is the
rule, of course. But it is the willingness to do MORE than "lay" there
and let the guy "get off".... It's a GFE like this with a gal who might
be attractive, but not a total "knock-out", that sweetly lingers in the
memory. The message to providers should be...treat us the most humanly
way possible, get into it, and leave an impression. That's the way to do
But not everyone wants GFE such as what one man said:
"Some guys want/like a GFE but not all us. Snuggling, holding hands,
caresses ..... ugh Sorry, I want it hot and nasty. "
And more wisdom from retlakk:
"Personally, I get the most pleasure out of sex when we both have a good
time. I really try to turn the girl on and please her. Stroking,
cuddling, kissing is all part of that, and it's surely unnatural to
preserve complete emotional detachment while giving this the full
attention which it deserves.
Maybe it's a question of age. I'm over 50, have had several girlfriends.
I don't think I'm going to get lovesick over a sex affair. For a young
man, it might be different. Yes, there is some danger of getting hooked,
these girls are not called "hookers" for nothing. But treating a girl
like some kind of animated rubber doll misses most of the point of
So different men seek different type of providers, hot and nasty or more
intimacy and that hard to define intangible GFE.
by ecto , Mar 03,2001
Thank you Dave for such a thoughtful, excellent post. Without quite
realizing it, I've also been seeking a GFE, an intimate, mutually
satisfying encounter on a human rather than commercial level. I don't
think that it's a contradiction in terms.
A paid for experience doesn't have to be money
driven. Sex surrogates do the same thing, but are more socially and
legally accepted, and have professional degrees. Of course, speaking as
an American, I think there's no doubt that the puritanical US culture is
among the most repressed in the world, so that sex, which is inherently
such a joyful, intimate and wonderful human experience becomes, devoid
of joy, mechanical, and emotionally barren.
I've stopped going to SPs in the US. My best experiences
have been in Canada and Australia in particular, with its legalized
brothels, and cult of pleasure throughout the society. Aussies just love
a good time, and aren't ashamed about it. Friends have told me that the
same is true in Japan, and that the most physically beautiful women are
found in the sex trade. I guess they feel that they are more accepted
and rewarded for doing such work, a heritage from the days of the
Also see related article with more wisdom from others at