Discussion of GFE and Old
Dave's Response :(
--- In nationalfbsm@yahoogroups.com, Michael <eroshands@y...> wrote:
> O.K. Here is what I am saying. If a HARD and FAST rule
> were in effect that providers advertising GFE would
> provide BBBJ and DFK, there would be no confusion,
> would there? HOWEVER if you say that the definition
> was that there is "more" intimacy or its just an
> attitude thing or any crap like that, you don't have a
> clue what the advertiser provides
Michael, Michael....
I believe I was one of the first to coin and use the phrase GFE way back before
there was much of a web - there was the alt.sex.prosititution newsgroup which we
read by packet readers at the amazing speed of 120 cps (without a k) and it took
many minutes to download a single message.
Then there was the old Prodigy boards on those very slow dial ups long before
Yahoo or many websites. Then websites developed and I first coded libchrist.com
having to know raw html code, not the lazy way today...although I would never
want to go back to hand coding html.
Back in those days we respected providers and would never think of having
unhealthy bareback oral or any kind of unhealthy sex. And this was before the
HIV scares (which isn't really much risk in heterosexual sexwork, but lots of
other nasty STD's are). Many of us seek the GFE experience which means a real
relationship for the moment with a sincere women who enjoys the experience, not
just mechanical sex.
Now you and some young on's come along and expect to totally change the
definition for your own selfish, unsafe, ...pardon the expression moronic
attitudes.
Many of us prefer what you call crap to having a women take the health risks of
unsafe sex which she may not even enjoy doing just to please the Michael's that
demand their selfish ways.
Fortunately I have seen a vast change in attitude about "intimacy crap" over the
years. When I use to do Canadian reports on the old Canada Best board, there
would be the responses of being sick and tired of all my intimacy crap and real
men just fxxk women and none of this intimacy nonsense.
But over the years that has drastically changed and zillions of men being more
in tune with their more intimate side and find they enjoy it far more than being
the big macho sex stud.
It's been years since I've had that negative response on the boards I am active
on - Mostly Canadian - with my zillions of Canadian reviews since I prefer for
sexwork, to be in a country not run by the religious right where consenting
adults have the sexual freedoms we do not have in the U.S. Not to mention far
lower costs when you don't have the legal risk premium.
Girl Friend Experience - Short definition
What it means to each person is a little different, but to most guys it means a
provider that makes the experience seem unrushed, enjoyable, fun, relaxing and
more like a "real date than a quick commercial encounter. In practice, though,
it seems to depend on chemistry, personality and mutual expectations, as YMMV
("your mileage may vary") for both the provider and client. A general
description might be: a session that facilitates the experience, mutual
cuddling/foreplay, mutual kissing, mutual oral sex (covered or
uncovered--depending), and involves either the illusion or reality of passion on
the part of the provider. Most of all its about being a sincere mutually desired
human interaction. It is the opposite of the women being treated like a sex toy
and the man an ATM machine.
Old Dave in Phoenix who enjoys intimacy more than hot sex.
Longer Discussion:
Here is my
vew of GFE which I realize is not shared by all, that is fine, its just one
view:
GFE by Dave in Phoenix
Many people in reviews public and private say they seek GFE
To me, GFE is "Girl Friend Experience" like renting a girl friend for the hour
instead of the more cold, detached "hooker" type pro. Obviously many of us seek
this GFE, not a pro like many in Nevada etc. Most importantly, a GFE is natural,
not mechanical or forced. No matter what kind of play is desired it should feel
like 'the real thing'.
But GFE is defined differently by different people. For me, GFE involves having
an emotional and intellectual connection with a provider like you would with a
real girlfriend, not just a body for physical sex. Some define it by what things
a provider will do such as kiss or if they will do bareback (I don't recommend). But I've experienced very mechanical kisses and
relate it more to that "connection" on a deeper level than only the body, even
if only for the moment, is paid for and you may not meet her again.
Often I have heard a provider reply to the question "Are you
GFE" with "You mean you want me to nag you a lot?"
I also relate to what I refer as a "universal love", which many people just
don't agree with our cultures definition of "love". GFE and "love" can be for
the moment, it doesn't have to result in "falling in love" that many are so
afraid of. It is more like standing in love of a unique spirit of a person and
seeking to express this Universal love by sensual pleasure giving touch,
sensuality and sexuality. But we are taught in our culture "love" has to be
exclusive and possessing another.
In the GFE I seek, I especially enjoy caring high touch intimacy, stoking,
massaging, holding her, caressing her trying to relate to her inner spirit via
high tender touch not a body to have sex with. Combine this GFE intimacy and
sensual sexuality and I really enjoy the experience.
While there are exceptions, I find very few American providers offer this. The
attitude in the U.S. is often "oh, I save all emotions for my boyfriend". This
contrasts sharply with women I've met from many other cultures, European, Latin
America, Asian, that seem so much more open to sharing GFE and the type of
intimacy I enjoy.
The reasons are quite obvious. Most other cultures don't have the repressive
sexual attitudes that we do in the U.S. Often foreign women are much more
naturally open, intimate and provide easy GFE which is often totally foreign to
most U.S. sexworkers. Their are of course exceptions of wonderful GFE providers
in the U.S. and hard business only pro foreign women. But in my "studies" of
providers in various parts of the world, as well as for example in Los Angeles
and San Francisco, where you have lots of foreign women at hostess and strip
clubs etc., my overwhelming experience is this obvious difference in cultures.
In response Caitlin a Phoenix sexworker said:
"While I have not advertized myself as GFE, that is what many of my clients have
experienced. To me it is a question not of what you do, but how you do it. It
definitely involves some kind of "connection," as Dave put it.
When I'm with a client, I genuinely want both of us to have a good time. I
usually manage to find something (or a lot) about their personality that I like,
which makes it more fun for me. GFE definitely means no clock watching, filling
out the hour if he finishes early, a massage if he wants it, things like that.
A GFE may or may not include kissing. I like what CJ said about earning a kiss.
If it doesn't happen on the first date, don't despair, it might happen on
subsequent dates. If there is no genuine desire in me to give you a kiss, it
will be mechanical. I always appreciate a client who lets me kiss him first
before he kisses me.
It seems to me a GFE is rather indefinable. Everyone has a different idea about
it. That emotional connection is an intangible, and there is no guarantee that
you and your provider will experience it. And one needn't have a FS provider to
achieve that either."
Dave says, that was a great response from Caitlin, who I thank for her input
(reposted with her permission)
More good thoughts:
by St. Louis Guy:
"GFE is one thing to one person, another thing to another, but I know from
experience, that you can share an hour (or most times less) with a very
beautiful woman and feel totally ripped off afterwards, mainly due to a "get it
over" attitude, which says, "Hurry up, pay me, and I'm outta here!!" Those
experiences, widely experienced in Vegas and other markets with certain agencies
or individual providers really suck, especially when you pay higher dollar. The
best GFE is the girl or woman who treats you in a relaxed, human (not
mechanical) manner, and responds. She doesn't have to kiss, but many do, and
safe sex is the rule, of course. But it is the willingness to do MORE than "lay"
there and let the guy "get off".... It's a GFE like this with a gal who might be
attractive, but not a total "knock-out", that sweetly lingers in the memory. The
message to providers should be...treat us the most humanly way possible, get
into it, and leave an impression. That's the way to do it! "
But not everyone wants GFE such as what one man said:
"Some guys want/like a GFE but not all us. Snuggling, holding hands, caresses
..... ugh Sorry, I want it hot and nasty. "
And more wisdom from retlakk:
"Personally, I get the most pleasure out of sex when we both have a good time. I
really try to turn the girl on and please her. Stroking, cuddling, kissing is
all part of that, and it's surely unnatural to preserve complete emotional
detachment while giving this the full attention which it deserves.
Maybe it's a question of age. I'm over 50, have had several girlfriends. I don't
think I'm going to get lovesick over a sex affair. For a young man, it might be
different. Yes, there is some danger of getting hooked, these girls are not
called "hookers" for nothing. But treating a girl like some kind of animated
rubber doll misses most of the point of making love."
So different men seek different type of providers, hot and nasty or more
intimacy and that hard to define intangible GFE.
by ecto , Mar 03,2001
Thank you Dave for such a thoughtful, excellent post. Without quite realizing
it, I've also been seeking a GFE, an intimate, mutually satisfying encounter on
a human rather than commercial level. I don't think that it's a contradiction in
terms.
A paid for experience doesn't have to be money driven. Sex surrogates do the same thing, but are more socially and legally accepted, and have professional degrees. Of course, speaking as an American, I think there's no doubt that the puritanical US culture is among the most repressed in the world, so that sex, which is inherently such a joyful, intimate and wonderful human experience becomes, devoid of joy, mechanical, and emotionally barren.
I've stopped going to SPs in the US. My best
experiences have been in Canada and Australia in particular, with its legalized
brothels, and cult of pleasure throughout the society. Aussies just love a good
time, and aren't ashamed about it. Friends have told me that the same is true in
Japan, and that the most physically beautiful women are found in the sex trade.
I guess they feel that they are more accepted and rewarded for doing such work,
a heritage from the days of the concubine.
Also see related article with more wisdom from others at
http://www.sexwork.com/subcontents/whymenpayGFE.html