TBD Lies, Slander and Censorship
An open letter to TBD &
What Many Others are Saying about the Phoenix TBD situation
Pardon this long factual detailed letter, I prefer to include factual verifiable
information not just emotional rants that are unsupported.
Dear TBD:
I demand you cease your slander, lies and false innuendos. You have violated
your own board rules by attacks that have no basis. You delete all replies
you don't like as well as your mass deleting of posts discussing lower cost
providers. My only intent has been to help others find honest information.
Too bad that isn't your intent. You are destroying your own TBD board
not anyone else, like you blame.
When you started your attacking posts in late 1999 I e-mailed you requesting
an intelligent discussion as gentlemen any concerns you have. I have tried
to do that with you privately many times. Your response is always lies, attacks,
and repeating the same issues I have answered for you many times. It is sad
you seem so insecure you can't be honest or carry on a civil discussion of
any concerns without name calling and attacks.
When in late May 2000 you posted publicly your attacks on me all of which
I had replied to privately in 12/99, you didn't like my reply, so as usual
you solved the problem by deleting the thread and all others that in any way
discussed the potential for lower priced providers. I know you will deny this,
but everyone knows this that has been active on the Phoenix board. Mostly
only posts about your favored $400/hr providers remain along with their discussion
of how wonderful they all are. Just before you did your mass deletion of posts,
I counted of the last 100 posts only 5 were mine including supporting Cole
Taylor going on 20/20. Everyone saw your mass deletions as you have often
done. I've included a sample of others replies to show it is not just me that
is saying this. On your mind, lots of folks are all just lying because you
keep saying you don't selectively delete posts. You say that and do the opposite.
That is what is clear to many who have seen it happen repeatedly.
You have destroyed the happy family we had on the Phoenix board by your mass
deleting of posts other than the favored providers. There were many posts
on the TBD Phoenix board upset with you (TBD) for your mass deletions and
attacks in violation of your own board rules. Most were taken down by you
soon after being posted. Most comments were very respectful, but you deleted
them anyway. Here is one example of a post you quickly deleted in May 2000
after your many mass deletions:
"While this is my first post here, I have been visiting this site for some
time. This message board provides a very valuable service to many, and I applaud
the organizers. I have recently become aware of a possible rift between this
board and a significant contributor identified as Dave in Phoenix. In my humble
opinion, Dave has provided myself and many others with an enormous amount
of invaluable info and insight. His posts are unbiased and very informative.
The organizers of this board are doing a great job, but would do us all a
disservice by censoring a contibutor with an alternative point of view."
Here is another active board members post you quickly removed:
"you all must have noticed my message asking for reviews on essence entertainment
was also deleted along with 's response and all other responses to that message.
i'd sure like to know what was wrong with the post. He has become obsessive
compulsive about making it useless for any real information just because he
wants control."
When you falsely attacked me for trying to promote sexwork.com and the private
list we have in Phoenix for reviews of providers that would never want to
be outed on a public board, I even stopped using my usual sexwork.com signature
which is standard and acceptable as non advertising on any newsgroup or other
boards. I even refused to tell people when they asked about the private list
how to find it. I have repeated many times, I have no financial gain whatever
from sexwork.com or the private list. You keep asking me about my hidden agenda,
refusing to believe the truth - I have none other than to help people. You
have suggested infiltration of vice cops and stings from the private list
even when I've told you we have never had any LE activity that we know of
in 3 years of the private list.
You now post a new lie that somehow there is a conspiracy to destroy the TBD
Phoenix Board, another total fantasy lie of yours. As I've privately E-mailed
you at least three times, I have supported, praised and try to help people
on the Phoenix Board. I've said it is a great place to share info on rip offs,
discuss already public providers etc. In fact I had hoped to suggest to the
200 people on the private list to come to the Phoenix TBD board where we could
share non private information on a more live basis than the once a week private
list mailing. Now you claim I am out to destroy the board and any replies
I and others make that don't fit your fantasy you have deleted. Only your
lies remain.
I have had nothing but respect and positive comments about all your favored
expensive providers. One of the "Big 4 providers" asked me to phone her. She
is very supportive of all providers regardless of price, as long as they are
honest and not scams giving everyone a bad name. She is very supportive of
the private list and was on it for a long time.
It is embarrassing to some of the favored providers on TBD
that you keep posts about them, while deleting others. Most are totally against
your censorship. There is one who is gets very upset and irrationally emotional
(just like TBD) and I suspect she is the one complaining so much to TBD that
I am on the board at all. On the National Board, She made the silly attack
that we are suggesting nothing but street hookers in Phoenix at less than
$400. That is really far fetched as I've been very negative about street hookers
vs private providers.
The board is owned by you, TBD, and you can use it to promote your agenda,
that is your right. But despite your constant denials, more and more folks
are realizing what your agenda is and your censorship of anyone you don't
like.
At first when all the attacks on you started on newsgroups, etc., I gave you
the benefit of the doubt and didn't repeat or spread them. Now I have learned
from personal experience and seen by many others they seem to be true.
More specifics facts not just emotional rants for more background:
Here is an exchange on TBD Phoenix just before the recent mass deletion of
many posts about lower costs providers, but none about the "favored TBD providers"
were deleted:
Here is the "Questions for Dave in Phoenix" thread that resulted in TBDs rant.
I had in another thread mentioned in response to a question about there must
be providers in Phoenix that aren't $400, that yes there are lots of great
$200 providers but they don't want to be outed on any public board. Then MV
started a thread "Questions for Dave in Phoenix". Here is the exchange with
your jumping in:
MV says:
So how can we find one of these excellent $200 or under providers you were
talking about?
Dave in Phoenix says:
I can't answer you here, since I am not suppose to promote another source,
which isn't my intent in being here and its almost too big anyway now. I'm
trying to be helpful and share ideas but not promote what TBD considers a
competing private review list.
TBD changes the topic to "competition, nuisance, and the state of AZ" and
says ...:
TBD says:
There is a real difference between competition and nuisance... The difference
is that Dave is merely a nuisance.
He ONLY posts here to promote his own interests. He makes reference to it
in every post. I have asked him to stop but yet he continues at every opportunity--even
fabricating oportunities. He constantly trolls for new members to his list.
I've told him privately that this is not a competition and that I encourage
him to do his own thing---preferably elsewhere as he is choking this board
with his brand of cyber-terrorism.
For the doubters, go back and do a search on Dave and count the number of
times he mentions his list, how he says/implies that nothing else but his
list is safe in Phoenix, and how the "low-dollar" ladies are the best. Say
it once and move on. Its very tiresome to constantly hear the same old broken
record over-and-over. And yet he NEVER makes mention for anyone's benefit
of these resources. Only if he can benefit from the alleged referrals and
from the "control" issues.
Totally freeloading and using this board as an advertisement for his "private"
shit. He does this knowingly and repeatedly. He will probably make some mis-informed
and technically incorrect speech about First Amendment rights in answer to
this.
What Dave fails to mention is whether he receives any special benefits form
his "list"? I'm not making any allegations, but he should reveal if he gets
special offers, reduced rates, and/or freebies in return for pushing ads for
ladies on his private list. It would be refreshing for him to publically state
the truth so that there is no misunderstanding. (I've gotten a lot of email
asking that I ask him this--the emailers are scared that he will attack them
across the internet as he has done for others---TBD included.)
Next, there should be a full disclosure of whom the mailing list involves.
There have been several unsubstantianted rumors that his much touted list
is heavily infiltrated by Phoenix-area law enforcement. This has been alleged
to TBD via email from both clients and escorts after encounters they have
had with LE. To be fair his is not the only "so-called" private e-mail list
to have been infiltrated. Again I'm not making any allegations, just seeking
the truth.
The absolute best solution for this Phoenix Board, for the TBD site, and for
all concerned would be if the nuisance Dave just packed his tent and moved
on to greener pastures where his ramblings and innuendo would be appreciated.
TBD just wants to run a great site. Having Dave--a self-proclaimed competitor--constantly
trying to tear things down is not a good situation. Anyone with a shred of
self-respect wouldn't do what he is doing.
Dave in Phoenix replies:
Oh boy.... Yes, if people read my posts they are very supportive of ALL providers
and nothing whatsoever is true about TBD's rant. At least you made your false
attacks in public for all to see vs your E-mails to me.
I am happy to address all your false rumors and allegations as I already have
done privately at least twice before:
I never, ever, stated that low value ladies were best. You obviously don't
read my posts. I have stated in posts many times that I support all levels
as long as they are honest and not just the many high priced scams.
Many of the lower cost providers do not want to be outed in public since we
know LE reads these boards. They would be very upset to have a positive post
here. They don't need more business, especially by being mentioned in public.
That is simply how it is in Phoenix, but you refuse to understand that fact.
Many here are looking for less than $400/hr providers and yes there are many
of them in Phoenix. They are not better and I've never said so. I have not
given any info here on how to participate in the private list at your request
and refused to answer even direct questions about it.
Most of my posts are answering questions and trying to be helpful. When I
know certain agencies or providers are rip offs I share that info.
I have NO INTEREST in promoting my site or private list. It is getting so
large it is a great deal of work for no compensation. And sexwork.com doesn't
need promoting - it averages over 1000 different IP addresses coming a day.
There is no financial benefit to me on the website, the private list, all
free.
I receive no compensation for helping folks with the private list. I seldom
see Phoenix providers myself (maybe six times a year) since my interest is
more in intimacy not just sex. I often travel outside the US where intimacy
is more common, without the legal issues.
The private list has been in existence for over 3 years and as far as anyone
can tell, although lots of LE activity and stings against those that advertise
on the web or in local papers, there has never been a sting against any of
the many highly favorably reviewed providers on the private list who wasn't
also very public.
I do not edit reviews, simply pass them on to the list. I do not push any
particular providers, I simply pass on others reviews. Once in a while I contribute
reviews but often anonymously just like anyone else. And since I don't get
out much myself they are rare.
Yes, I am very open in saying LE was on the Old list 3 years ago. But an informant
told us a vice cop had said the info couldn't be used even to sting. Law folks
tell me because of the "oath" required LE could be subject to civil action
by fraudulently getting on the list. Yes, I know that doesn't mean it can't
be used for stings but it seems it never has, even when we knew LE had fraudulently
got on the old list. While the protection is not perfect it is far better
than a public board.
Sorry if the truth does match the rumors your alleging.
Regarding the private list, I have no idea if reviews are actual or fantasy.
I of course, because of current laws, only promote legal non-sexual intimacy
(caressing, non-sexual touch, companionship, conversation) sessions, nothing
illegal. Anything else that happens is a matter of personal choice between
consenting adults of legal age and should not be contracted for, nor should
it be requested to be contracted for or compensated for in any manner!
If any reviews includes sexual services, we are not recommending readers solicit
or use the sex worker for any illegal sexual activity.
I had hoped this board could serve as a compliment for the 200 some folks
on the private list and I could encourage them to share less private ideas
here and have more interactive discussions. But with your attitude and attacks,
of course I won't and I get many E-mails amazed at your attitude about me
you have expressed before.
I sincerely suggest you actually read all my posts in the last month or so,
and ask yourself if your accusations have any factual basis. I don't know
how they could if you actually read my posts.
(No reply except deletion of the thread)
===============================================
Going back to 12/99 we went over all this ground before.... In response to
another ranting E-mail from TBD to me I replied:
Lets talk facts not just accusations without any support if you are going
to attack me. I am happy to discuss any issue with a mature adult person that
doesn't just get emotional rants. I am not accusing you of that, but your
actions and posts were more designed in my view to fuel the fire instead of
try and solve a problem for the benefit of all.
The facts are, there were a number of posts saying in frustration that there
must be more than 4 providers in Phoenix, and some that weren't so expensive.
The board was languishing and you threatened to close it if it was not more
active.
Since I know there are many lower cost great, honest, providers in Phoenix,
I thought I was being helpful by mentioning the more private way of knowing
about them, with less LE risk. I was not trying to compete with TBD, in fact
I think it was a great community. I certainly don't need more people coming
to our website or private list. We had to go a new host since traffic was
so high and we already have 200 people on private list which is over 3 years
old. We don't need more but we are willing to share if it can be helpful.
There is no financial benefit to me whatsoever in anything I do trying to
help people their sexual frustrations and promote decriminalization and share
ideas on sexwork.
My "Spam" consisted of one post announcing sexwork.com was back up on a new
server and a post announcing the private E-mail list since so many were asking
about other providers. The rest were answering questions, discussion of providers
etc. Or, like a post answering a question how to get to a certain massage
parlor, or a particular agency's pricing structure.
Also when someone tried to subscribe to the more private way, their E-mail
bounced because the archive of reviews since 7/1/99 is too big, as did a smaller
message I sent .. actually there were two such people that I assumed came
from TBD. So I felt it would be helpful to mention the Juno problem, which
I did.
Instead of accusing me of spreading lies and false information, please tell
me specifically what lies I am spreading. I am simply telling the facts. And
how nice the community of folks was getting until you jumped in and ruined
it. But its your board and that is your right. I only thought I'd try and
help folks here and share information which many were desperately seeking
for some lower priced honest options.
Do you object to any announcement posts about any other related service that
can compliment what is discussed here?
Do you object to me using the url link on the bottom of every reply submission
form to show sexwork.com, just like a signature file that I always use. Thinking
that may be the objection I stopped using it on some posts.
Do you object to me trying to help folks find other options except the 4 that
are the only ones that seem to be known about here.?
Do you object to me answering questions about a certain agency or giving directions
to a specific massage establishment when someone asks ?
That was all I did, that's the facts.
I am confused what you object to. If I knew your rules (I violated none of
the published ones) I would be happy to comply.
And what are the lofty claims you excuse me of not living up to you accused
me of in your E-mail to me?
===============================================
Here is a sample of the huge amount of E-mail to me after TBD had his fit
and did has massive deletions of so many posts on the Phoenix Board in May
2000:
-----------
Dave,
I posted.....but it was removed, later that evening....
i too went back to see, all posts removed...what a prick that guy is.
----------
Dave,
As an Internet expert...Living in Phoenix and doing consulting work all over
the country I can tell you this.... The TBD board is way tooo public for most
and that would be one of the main reasons people have dropped off the board,
not too mention... People do not want to see the same 4 providers responsd
to questions...(talor,etc...).. He needs to address his own concerns personally..and
I for one have enjoyed your list for about 6 mths. now...
This guys seems to be on a national level or tries to be anyway.. so whats
his gripe..does he not have competition in other states.. welcome to the internet
moron...really dave this guy pisses me off.. If It was a few yrs. back I would
rip his site down....I have just luckily changed my ways...I really dont like
this guys site.. or his attitude..Not that you remember but I worked in the
topless club industry and saw yack offs like this all the time trying to make
money off providers...forget him and his board I personally think it would
be best if everyone ignored him...who needs his board..message boards are
the easiest thing in the world to maintain...start your own.. or contact me
if you need assistance in the matter...
Dave comments: I have no interest or time to start a board. TBD with its flaws
and its owner's personality is one of the most well known. I have been fighting
to keep it and try and help by providing information other than just the Big
4's discussion many are bored with. It could be a great asset in Phoenix and
a compliment to other more private lists.
--------------------
This exchange provided me with a good laugh. I've been subscribing to your
list for about two years now and have never heard you hawk a single thing.
I especially got a kick out of the "alleged" sexual favors for advertising".
Given your often stated preference for non sexual touch and intimacy, I can
only assume you have conned the girls at XXXX to provide you with access to
their backs for your nonsexual massages. Shame on you Dave! The piece de la
resistance though is all those who live in fear of your attacking them. I
have read dozens of truly bizarre comments, etc. from your list and the most
"attacking" thing I have heard is you state up front that you edited a response
for length or clarity, which is much more an act of kidness to your subscribers
then anything else.
My only hope is that my email to you didn't upset you. I would hate to have
you sick XXXX's Army of beautiful women on me as a way of seeking revenge.
Come to think about it, if that is your form of revenge, seek away!!
Keep up the good work Dave and don't let knuckleheads like that get to you.
They aren't worth your time.
------------------
Too bad about TBD -- he's also part of the "Texas-Based" list, and does seems
partial to certain providers. However, just ignore the little prick and keep
doing what you're doing -- you've got 200+ supporters out there Dave!
-----------------
I am a daily reader of TBD and find it very imformative. I am however a more
practicle person and would prefer two at $200 instead of 1 at $400. I think
TBD is a little insecure. I think he has little persons syndrom. Being of
stature, 6'-3", 250 lbs, I have come across several people like this. They
are these small petite people and everything the own is big. A big 4x4, a
big stereo, you get the drift. Even though I have never met or seen TBD he
reminds me of one of them. And he is completely power hungry and anal.
As far as your promoting your list on TBD, even though I don't think you do
it intensionally, I do see how it makes him whine and whimper.
-----------------------
Dave:
I never looked too close on the board because the prices are so high and never
posted because it seemed like too pulbic a board. At those prices I feel horrible
and can only have fun on rare occassions or when things get really bad. I
appreaciate your private ee-mail list .
----------------------
Dave, I support your efforts to get TBD to stop deleting posts on sub-$300-400/hr
providors. I've been a long time contributor on the boards and have stopped
using the board on a regular basis. Part of the fun of the hobby is finding
a really great lady for $250 or less.
I was told by a top 20 provider ($350/hr) I met that TBD was soliciting $100/month
"donations" in order to be on the Top 100 list. If this is true, I've lost
all faith in the ratings. Sure, some of the girls are worthy of the high status
(I've seen several in the top 20), but what about the girls at the lower end?
Are they really as good as a Top 100 rating would lead one to believe?
Do the math. $120K a year from the girls alone is nothing to sneeze at. That's
IN ADDITION to the ad revenue he gets from the banner ads and other sources
of income.
Dave replies: I have no personal knowledge about his soliciting fees but there
are many reports similar to this from others that have been posted on newsgroups
over the last few years.
--------------------
By moderate1 on Wednesday, May 24, 2000 - 03:12 pm:
The TBD site is corrupt and therefore unreliable. How can any review be trusted
if TBD has his own favorites and keeps their good reviews while discarding/editing
others (remember the Charlie of Chicago episode?)? And whoever heard of a
provider moderating a discussion page that rates providers in her geographic
area? There is not even a pretense of trustworthiness.
-----------------------
On TBD Phoenix:
Re: TBD problems? --- Caitlin
Posted by AzRedwood , May 29,2000,13:05
The problem is; if you aren't one of the high priced ladies, TBD gongs you,
he only wants information disseminated that he controls, any other information
on any other providers, he deletes, so much for freedom of information. This
message to will be deleted. LOL>>>>>>
TBD reply's- his typical emotional rant mode:
how can you...
Posted by TBD , May 30,2000,06:20
tell such a big fu*king lie????
Reviews and information about escorts never get deleted here unless it is
overly grahic or outside the stated guidelines. It is welcome. For you to
state otherwise is a complete lie.
(Dave says: Everyone on the Phoenix board knows TBD is the one lying. There
have been no discussions in overly graphic detail but many deleted posts yet
TBD continues to make up his own tales and call everyone else a liar.)
What isn't welcome are lies like yours and by others who spread paranoia and
deceit. Information is always welcome. Bullshit and obvious propaganda designed
to clog this board and promote the web site of another is not welcome.
TBD provides message boiards in most other cities across the US. In the more
erudite and wsell-informed areas it is received very well. In DC there are
posts about providers who do $50 for 15 minutes and in NYC for full service
at $60/hr. Those posts run there just like they would here if anyone posted
them. (And a former poster here made a holy war warning everyone not to post
such info here under the phony guise of it being dangerous LE-wise...) These
are historical and un-rebuttable facts--and they tear your weak lying arguments
to shreds.
Real simple. Only a real idiot wouldn't understand the difference. This was
one of my concerns when I opened a Phoenix Board. Are there really enough
educated and well-intentioned gentlemen in the Phoenix area to support it.
Or are they all undeducated and unscrupulous misfits??? Exhibit A.
The real goal of you and one other is to close this board because it threatens
a private email list of lower-priced providers. They are scared to death that
this willl be a free place for those escorts to advertise and be reviewed.
That is why the continued harping. So you/him do all you can to screw things
up. Lets be honest about this.
You and your mentor are continuing thi guerilla warfare hoping to piss me
off enough that I'd close this Phoenix board. Won't happen. I pay for this
and I do run it. Because of that it will run like the other Boards on the
site. Ignorance and stupidity will not be tolerated or allowed. If that bothers
you then go someplace else.
Dave comments: This is typical TBD rant mode. How many times have I said how
much I support the Phoenix TBD board, have always had total respect for all
providers, even have refused to answer questions directly asked about how
to find private list and long ago even deleted sexwork.com as part of my standard
signature like is acceptable and normal on any other board or newsgroup. I
replied, but of course my reply was deleted by TBD along with who knows how
many others.
===============================================
Info on prior mass delete that occurred in December 1999, my 12/99 Public
response which was deleted:
I answered many direct questions with direct answers. A few posters mentioned
how helpful sexwork.com and related help had been to them. Some topics even
ended in "Dave please reply" wanting information and some good discussions
were started, before you deleted them.
Then someone posting as TBD, comes on the board threatening to close it because
of me. Others jump in wondering why. One person wrote that I had provided
more good information than anyone else ever had, and he was asking why on
earth TBD was attacking me, when I was one of the most valuable sources of
info on the board. (The WOW reply to TBD's note that is also now gone).
Shortly after all my posts and those that asked TBD why I was being attacked,
disappeared from the board. Since then, there are other posts upset about
the censorship of me, such as "Censorship if your not in the click" but that
post, not by me, will probably be censored off as soon as TBD reads it.
BTW since it will probably be gone soon it says, "well it is to bad that the
webmaster of this page feels that open cencorship is nessasary. I have had
my posts deleted also. I guess if your looking for valid information on The
Escort Scene in Arizone you will not get it from this so called free medium.
It has become a advertising sight for High priced or and over priced escorts
that can't stand the competion from more reasonable providers."
Interestingly a post that says "Dave feedback please" is still there but my
reply answering his question has been deleted.
Most of my replies said nothing about sexwork.com, just answered peoples questions
directly. I even started deleting my signature line with the sexwork.com link
in the space provided on every reply form, in case that was the board monitors
big problem after getting an E-mail from "TBD" accusing me of spaming his
board and that he was "pissed". He also said, "You make a lot of lofty claims
but seems you don't live up to them". I replied back asking what on earth
he was talking about, but never got a reply other than the deletion of all
my posts. I never made any claims, other than there were many great reasonable
cost providers in Phoenix, but for legal protection couldn't name them in
TBG's public forum, but suggested another option where there are hundreds
of reviews of local providers shared privately.
Sadly the idea of sharing ideas freely is not possible on the Phoenix board,
as other's have posted and had their posts also censored off. If seems that
if you don't just tow the line and support the type of high cost providers
that promote themselves freely on the board, your not welcome. Interestingly,
one of the higher priced active provider/posters even wrote me supporting
my activity agreeing with my view that choices are important. There had also
been posts asking where are the good providers in Phoenix are, their must
be more than 4 that were not affordable to many on the board. All those posts
were also censored off.
TBD seemed to be a nice community with somewhat more privacy that just the
asp newsgroup. But in my view, it has been ruined by censorship just when
the community was getting comfortable and new friends were being made.
------
From a active LA hobbyist
I guess I have to throw my 2 centavos in here. It is my opinion that TBD is
strictly a commercial enterprise, thinly disguised to be a benifit to all,
but really promoting certain escorts who highly benefit by their participation
and moderation of the TBD board. I believe TBD is still active and also highly
benifits. The whole deal is this. To present the ladies as beautiful, loving
people who care about their clients and who provide an extrodinary experiencxemmands,in
many cases,far more than the going rate in the area. Say anything or suggest
that the cost is too high or post anything negative regarding certain ladies
will bring instant deletions and or personal attacks from the moderators and
or TBD. When I began to get the drift, I baited them with several posts and
got the response I knew I would get. They are not that smart. There is no
doubt LE looks at TBD, but I'm sure what brings the stings such as Long Beach
or Seattle. I heard Seattle was targeting visiting escorts. Maybe there was
a reason why? Maybe some of the local girls had some influence?????
-----
In conclusion, if you have actually read all this, and not just frothing at
the mouth, I only request one thing. You stop censoring posts and let the
Phoenix board be the great community it could be, without your interference
and your destroying it as anything other than an adverting forum for a few
high priced providers.
If you change your ways I will stop making public comments about your actions.
But if your censorship or your false denials continue, I feel it is important
for the benefit of all, that people realize what you are doing. Not by making
emotional rants, but by documented examples such as I have done in this letter.
Respectfully,
Dave in Phoenix
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