TBD Lies, Slander and Censorship
An open letter to TBD &
What Many Others are Saying about the Phoenix TBD situation

Pardon this long factual detailed letter, I prefer to include factual verifiable information not just emotional rants that are unsupported.

Dear TBD:

I demand you cease your slander, lies and false innuendos. You have violated your own board rules by attacks that have no basis. You delete all replies you don't like as well as your mass deleting of posts discussing lower cost providers. My only intent has been to help others find honest information. Too bad that isn't your intent. You are destroying your own TBD  board not anyone else, like you blame.

When you started your attacking posts in late 1999 I e-mailed you requesting an intelligent discussion as gentlemen any concerns you have. I have tried to do that with you privately many times. Your response is always lies, attacks, and repeating the same issues I have answered for you many times. It is sad you seem so insecure you can't be honest or carry on a civil discussion of any concerns without name calling and attacks.

When in late May 2000 you posted publicly your attacks on me all of which I had replied to privately in 12/99, you didn't like my reply, so as usual you solved the problem by deleting the thread and all others that in any way discussed the potential for lower priced providers. I know you will deny this, but everyone knows this that has been active on the Phoenix board. Mostly only posts about your favored $400/hr providers remain along with their discussion of how wonderful they all are. Just before you did your mass deletion of posts, I counted of the last 100 posts only 5 were mine including supporting Cole Taylor going on 20/20. Everyone saw your mass deletions as you have often done. I've included a sample of others replies to show it is not just me that is saying this. On your mind, lots of folks are all just lying because you keep saying you don't selectively delete posts. You say that and do the opposite. That is what is clear to many who have seen it happen repeatedly.

You have destroyed the happy family we had on the Phoenix board by your mass deleting of posts other than the favored providers. There were many posts on the TBD Phoenix board upset with you (TBD) for your mass deletions and attacks in violation of your own board rules. Most were taken down by you soon after being posted. Most comments were very respectful, but you deleted them anyway. Here is one example of a post you quickly deleted in May 2000 after your many mass deletions:

"While this is my first post here, I have been visiting this site for some time. This message board provides a very valuable service to many, and I applaud the organizers. I have recently become aware of a possible rift between this board and a significant contributor identified as Dave in Phoenix. In my humble opinion, Dave has provided myself and many others with an enormous amount of invaluable info and insight. His posts are unbiased and very informative. The organizers of this board are doing a great job, but would do us all a disservice by censoring a contibutor with an alternative point of view."

Here is another active board members post you quickly removed:
"you all must have noticed my message asking for reviews on essence entertainment was also deleted along with 's response and all other responses to that message. i'd sure like to know what was wrong with the post. He has become obsessive compulsive about making it useless for any real information just because he wants control."

When you falsely attacked me for trying to promote sexwork.com and the private list we have in Phoenix for reviews of providers that would never want to be outed on a public board, I even stopped using my usual sexwork.com signature which is standard and acceptable as non advertising on any newsgroup or other boards. I even refused to tell people when they asked about the private list how to find it. I have repeated many times, I have no financial gain whatever from sexwork.com or the private list. You keep asking me about my hidden agenda, refusing to believe the truth - I have none other than to help people. You have suggested infiltration of vice cops and stings from the private list even when I've told you we have never had any LE activity that we know of in 3 years of the private list.

You now post a new lie that somehow there is a conspiracy to destroy the TBD Phoenix Board, another total fantasy lie of yours. As I've privately E-mailed you at least three times, I have supported, praised and try to help people on the Phoenix Board. I've said it is a great place to share info on rip offs, discuss already public providers etc. In fact I had hoped to suggest to the 200 people on the private list to come to the Phoenix TBD board where we could share non private information on a more live basis than the once a week private list mailing. Now you claim I am out to destroy the board and any replies I and others make that don't fit your fantasy you have deleted. Only your lies remain.

I have had nothing but respect and positive comments about all your favored expensive providers. One of the "Big 4 providers" asked me to phone her. She is very supportive of all providers regardless of price, as long as they are honest and not scams giving everyone a bad name. She is very supportive of the private list and was on it for a long time.

It is embarrassing to some of the favored providers on TBD that you keep posts about them, while deleting others. Most are totally against your censorship. There is one who is gets very upset and irrationally emotional (just like TBD) and I suspect she is the one complaining so much to TBD that I am on the board at all. On the National Board, She made the silly attack that we are suggesting nothing but street hookers in Phoenix at less than $400. That is really far fetched as I've been very negative about street hookers vs private providers.

The board is owned by you, TBD, and you can use it to promote your agenda, that is your right. But despite your constant denials, more and more folks are realizing what your agenda is and your censorship of anyone you don't like.

At first when all the attacks on you started on newsgroups, etc., I gave you the benefit of the doubt and didn't repeat or spread them. Now I have learned from personal experience and seen by many others they seem to be true.

More specifics facts not just emotional rants for more background:

Here is an exchange on TBD Phoenix just before the recent mass deletion of many posts about lower costs providers, but none about the "favored TBD providers" were deleted:

Here is the "Questions for Dave in Phoenix" thread that resulted in TBDs rant. I had in another thread mentioned in response to a question about there must be providers in Phoenix that aren't $400, that yes there are lots of great $200 providers but they don't want to be outed on any public board. Then MV started a thread "Questions for Dave in Phoenix". Here is the exchange with your jumping in:

MV says:
So how can we find one of these excellent $200 or under providers you were talking about?

Dave in Phoenix says:
I can't answer you here, since I am not suppose to promote another source, which isn't my intent in being here and its almost too big anyway now. I'm trying to be helpful and share ideas but not promote what TBD considers a competing private review list.

TBD changes the topic to "competition, nuisance, and the state of AZ" and says ...:
TBD says:
There is a real difference between competition and nuisance... The difference is that Dave is merely a nuisance.

He ONLY posts here to promote his own interests. He makes reference to it in every post. I have asked him to stop but yet he continues at every opportunity--even fabricating oportunities. He constantly trolls for new members to his list. I've told him privately that this is not a competition and that I encourage him to do his own thing---preferably elsewhere as he is choking this board with his brand of cyber-terrorism.

For the doubters, go back and do a search on Dave and count the number of times he mentions his list, how he says/implies that nothing else but his list is safe in Phoenix, and how the "low-dollar" ladies are the best. Say it once and move on. Its very tiresome to constantly hear the same old broken record over-and-over. And yet he NEVER makes mention for anyone's benefit of these resources. Only if he can benefit from the alleged referrals and from the "control" issues.

Totally freeloading and using this board as an advertisement for his "private" shit. He does this knowingly and repeatedly. He will probably make some mis-informed and technically incorrect speech about First Amendment rights in answer to this.

What Dave fails to mention is whether he receives any special benefits form his "list"? I'm not making any allegations, but he should reveal if he gets special offers, reduced rates, and/or freebies in return for pushing ads for ladies on his private list. It would be refreshing for him to publically state the truth so that there is no misunderstanding. (I've gotten a lot of email asking that I ask him this--the emailers are scared that he will attack them across the internet as he has done for others---TBD included.)

Next, there should be a full disclosure of whom the mailing list involves. There have been several unsubstantianted rumors that his much touted list is heavily infiltrated by Phoenix-area law enforcement. This has been alleged to TBD via email from both clients and escorts after encounters they have had with LE. To be fair his is not the only "so-called" private e-mail list to have been infiltrated. Again I'm not making any allegations, just seeking the truth.

The absolute best solution for this Phoenix Board, for the TBD site, and for all concerned would be if the nuisance Dave just packed his tent and moved on to greener pastures where his ramblings and innuendo would be appreciated.

TBD just wants to run a great site. Having Dave--a self-proclaimed competitor--constantly trying to tear things down is not a good situation. Anyone with a shred of self-respect wouldn't do what he is doing.

Dave in Phoenix replies:

Oh boy.... Yes, if people read my posts they are very supportive of ALL providers and nothing whatsoever is true about TBD's rant. At least you made your false attacks in public for all to see vs your E-mails to me.

I am happy to address all your false rumors and allegations as I already have done privately at least twice before:

I never, ever, stated that low value ladies were best. You obviously don't read my posts. I have stated in posts many times that I support all levels as long as they are honest and not just the many high priced scams.

Many of the lower cost providers do not want to be outed in public since we know LE reads these boards. They would be very upset to have a positive post here. They don't need more business, especially by being mentioned in public. That is simply how it is in Phoenix, but you refuse to understand that fact.

Many here are looking for less than $400/hr providers and yes there are many of them in Phoenix. They are not better and I've never said so. I have not given any info here on how to participate in the private list at your request and refused to answer even direct questions about it.

Most of my posts are answering questions and trying to be helpful. When I know certain agencies or providers are rip offs I share that info.

I have NO INTEREST in promoting my site or private list. It is getting so large it is a great deal of work for no compensation. And sexwork.com doesn't need promoting - it averages over 1000 different IP addresses coming a day. There is no financial benefit to me on the website, the private list, all free.

I receive no compensation for helping folks with the private list. I seldom see Phoenix providers myself (maybe six times a year) since my interest is more in intimacy not just sex. I often travel outside the US where intimacy is more common, without the legal issues.

The private list has been in existence for over 3 years and as far as anyone can tell, although lots of LE activity and stings against those that advertise on the web or in local papers, there has never been a sting against any of the many highly favorably reviewed providers on the private list who wasn't also very public.

I do not edit reviews, simply pass them on to the list. I do not push any particular providers, I simply pass on others reviews. Once in a while I contribute reviews but often anonymously just like anyone else. And since I don't get out much myself they are rare.

Yes, I am very open in saying LE was on the Old list 3 years ago. But an informant told us a vice cop had said the info couldn't be used even to sting. Law folks tell me because of the "oath" required LE could be subject to civil action by fraudulently getting on the list. Yes, I know that doesn't mean it can't be used for stings but it seems it never has, even when we knew LE had fraudulently got on the old list. While the protection is not perfect it is far better than a public board.

Sorry if the truth does match the rumors your alleging.

Regarding the private list, I have no idea if reviews are actual or fantasy. I of course, because of current laws, only promote legal non-sexual intimacy (caressing, non-sexual touch, companionship, conversation) sessions, nothing illegal. Anything else that happens is a matter of personal choice between consenting adults of legal age and should not be contracted for, nor should it be requested to be contracted for or compensated for in any manner!

If any reviews includes sexual services, we are not recommending readers solicit or use the sex worker for any illegal sexual activity.

I had hoped this board could serve as a compliment for the 200 some folks on the private list and I could encourage them to share less private ideas here and have more interactive discussions. But with your attitude and attacks, of course I won't and I get many E-mails amazed at your attitude about me you have expressed before.

I sincerely suggest you actually read all my posts in the last month or so, and ask yourself if your accusations have any factual basis. I don't know how they could if you actually read my posts.
(No reply except deletion of the thread)
Going back to 12/99 we went over all this ground before.... In response to another ranting E-mail from TBD to me I replied:

Lets talk facts not just accusations without any support if you are going to attack me. I am happy to discuss any issue with a mature adult person that doesn't just get emotional rants. I am not accusing you of that, but your actions and posts were more designed in my view to fuel the fire instead of try and solve a problem for the benefit of all.

The facts are, there were a number of posts saying in frustration that there must be more than 4 providers in Phoenix, and some that weren't so expensive. The board was languishing and you threatened to close it if it was not more active.

Since I know there are many lower cost great, honest, providers in Phoenix, I thought I was being helpful by mentioning the more private way of knowing about them, with less LE risk. I was not trying to compete with TBD, in fact I think it was a great community. I certainly don't need more people coming to our website or private list. We had to go a new host since traffic was so high and we already have 200 people on private list which is over 3 years old. We don't need more but we are willing to share if it can be helpful. There is no financial benefit to me whatsoever in anything I do trying to help people their sexual frustrations and promote decriminalization and share ideas on sexwork.

My "Spam" consisted of one post announcing sexwork.com was back up on a new server and a post announcing the private E-mail list since so many were asking about other providers. The rest were answering questions, discussion of providers etc. Or, like a post answering a question how to get to a certain massage parlor, or a particular agency's pricing structure.

Also when someone tried to subscribe to the more private way, their E-mail bounced because the archive of reviews since 7/1/99 is too big, as did a smaller message I sent .. actually there were two such people that I assumed came from TBD. So I felt it would be helpful to mention the Juno problem, which I did.

Instead of accusing me of spreading lies and false information, please tell me specifically what lies I am spreading. I am simply telling the facts. And how nice the community of folks was getting until you jumped in and ruined it. But its your board and that is your right. I only thought I'd try and help folks here and share information which many were desperately seeking for some lower priced honest options.

Do you object to any announcement posts about any other related service that can compliment what is discussed here?

Do you object to me using the url link on the bottom of every reply submission form to show sexwork.com, just like a signature file that I always use. Thinking that may be the objection I stopped using it on some posts.

Do you object to me trying to help folks find other options except the 4 that are the only ones that seem to be known about here.?

Do you object to me answering questions about a certain agency or giving directions to a specific massage establishment when someone asks ?

That was all I did, that's the facts.

I am confused what you object to. If I knew your rules (I violated none of the published ones) I would be happy to comply.

And what are the lofty claims you excuse me of not living up to you accused me of in your E-mail to me?
Here is a sample of the huge amount of E-mail to me after TBD had his fit and did has massive deletions of so many posts on the Phoenix Board in May 2000:
I posted.....but it was removed, later that evening....
i too went back to see, all posts removed...what a prick that guy is.
As an Internet expert...Living in Phoenix and doing consulting work all over the country I can tell you this.... The TBD board is way tooo public for most and that would be one of the main reasons people have dropped off the board, not too mention... People do not want to see the same 4 providers responsd to questions...(talor,etc...).. He needs to address his own concerns personally..and I for one have enjoyed your list for about 6 mths. now...

This guys seems to be on a national level or tries to be anyway.. so whats his gripe..does he not have competition in other states.. welcome to the internet moron...really dave this guy pisses me off.. If It was a few yrs. back I would rip his site down....I have just luckily changed my ways...I really dont like this guys site.. or his attitude..Not that you remember but I worked in the topless club industry and saw yack offs like this all the time trying to make money off providers...forget him and his board I personally think it would be best if everyone ignored him...who needs his board..message boards are the easiest thing in the world to maintain...start your own.. or contact me if you need assistance in the matter...

Dave comments: I have no interest or time to start a board. TBD with its flaws and its owner's personality is one of the most well known. I have been fighting to keep it and try and help by providing information other than just the Big 4's discussion many are bored with. It could be a great asset in Phoenix and a compliment to other more private lists.
This exchange provided me with a good laugh. I've been subscribing to your list for about two years now and have never heard you hawk a single thing. I especially got a kick out of the "alleged" sexual favors for advertising". Given your often stated preference for non sexual touch and intimacy, I can only assume you have conned the girls at XXXX to provide you with access to their backs for your nonsexual massages. Shame on you Dave! The piece de la resistance though is all those who live in fear of your attacking them. I have read dozens of truly bizarre comments, etc. from your list and the most "attacking" thing I have heard is you state up front that you edited a response for length or clarity, which is much more an act of kidness to your subscribers then anything else.

My only hope is that my email to you didn't upset you. I would hate to have you sick XXXX's Army of beautiful women on me as a way of seeking revenge. Come to think about it, if that is your form of revenge, seek away!!

Keep up the good work Dave and don't let knuckleheads like that get to you. They aren't worth your time.
Too bad about TBD -- he's also part of the "Texas-Based" list, and does seems partial to certain providers. However, just ignore the little prick and keep doing what you're doing -- you've got 200+ supporters out there Dave!
I am a daily reader of TBD and find it very imformative. I am however a more practicle person and would prefer two at $200 instead of 1 at $400. I think TBD is a little insecure. I think he has little persons syndrom. Being of stature, 6'-3", 250 lbs, I have come across several people like this. They are these small petite people and everything the own is big. A big 4x4, a big stereo, you get the drift. Even though I have never met or seen TBD he reminds me of one of them. And he is completely power hungry and anal.

As far as your promoting your list on TBD, even though I don't think you do it intensionally, I do see how it makes him whine and whimper.
I never looked too close on the board because the prices are so high and never posted because it seemed like too pulbic a board. At those prices I feel horrible and can only have fun on rare occassions or when things get really bad. I appreaciate your private ee-mail list .
Dave, I support your efforts to get TBD to stop deleting posts on sub-$300-400/hr providors. I've been a long time contributor on the boards and have stopped using the board on a regular basis. Part of the fun of the hobby is finding a really great lady for $250 or less.

I was told by a top 20 provider ($350/hr) I met that TBD was soliciting $100/month "donations" in order to be on the Top 100 list. If this is true, I've lost all faith in the ratings. Sure, some of the girls are worthy of the high status (I've seen several in the top 20), but what about the girls at the lower end? Are they really as good as a Top 100 rating would lead one to believe?

Do the math. $120K a year from the girls alone is nothing to sneeze at. That's IN ADDITION to the ad revenue he gets from the banner ads and other sources of income.

Dave replies: I have no personal knowledge about his soliciting fees but there are many reports similar to this from others that have been posted on newsgroups over the last few years.
By moderate1 on Wednesday, May 24, 2000 - 03:12 pm:
The TBD site is corrupt and therefore unreliable. How can any review be trusted if TBD has his own favorites and keeps their good reviews while discarding/editing others (remember the Charlie of Chicago episode?)? And whoever heard of a provider moderating a discussion page that rates providers in her geographic area? There is not even a pretense of trustworthiness.
On TBD Phoenix:
Re: TBD problems? --- Caitlin
Posted by AzRedwood , May 29,2000,13:05
The problem is; if you aren't one of the high priced ladies, TBD gongs you, he only wants information disseminated that he controls, any other information on any other providers, he deletes, so much for freedom of information. This message to will be deleted. LOL>>>>>>

TBD reply's- his typical emotional rant mode:
how can you...
Posted by TBD , May 30,2000,06:20
tell such a big fu*king lie????
Reviews and information about escorts never get deleted here unless it is overly grahic or outside the stated guidelines. It is welcome. For you to state otherwise is a complete lie.

(Dave says: Everyone on the Phoenix board knows TBD is the one lying. There have been no discussions in overly graphic detail but many deleted posts yet TBD continues to make up his own tales and call everyone else a liar.)

What isn't welcome are lies like yours and by others who spread paranoia and deceit. Information is always welcome. Bullshit and obvious propaganda designed to clog this board and promote the web site of another is not welcome.

TBD provides message boiards in most other cities across the US. In the more erudite and wsell-informed areas it is received very well. In DC there are posts about providers who do $50 for 15 minutes and in NYC for full service at $60/hr. Those posts run there just like they would here if anyone posted them. (And a former poster here made a holy war warning everyone not to post such info here under the phony guise of it being dangerous LE-wise...) These are historical and un-rebuttable facts--and they tear your weak lying arguments to shreds.

Real simple. Only a real idiot wouldn't understand the difference. This was one of my concerns when I opened a Phoenix Board. Are there really enough educated and well-intentioned gentlemen in the Phoenix area to support it. Or are they all undeducated and unscrupulous misfits??? Exhibit A.

The real goal of you and one other is to close this board because it threatens a private email list of lower-priced providers. They are scared to death that this willl be a free place for those escorts to advertise and be reviewed. That is why the continued harping. So you/him do all you can to screw things up. Lets be honest about this.

You and your mentor are continuing thi guerilla warfare hoping to piss me off enough that I'd close this Phoenix board. Won't happen. I pay for this and I do run it. Because of that it will run like the other Boards on the site. Ignorance and stupidity will not be tolerated or allowed. If that bothers you then go someplace else.

Dave comments: This is typical TBD rant mode. How many times have I said how much I support the Phoenix TBD board, have always had total respect for all providers, even have refused to answer questions directly asked about how to find private list and long ago even deleted sexwork.com as part of my standard signature like is acceptable and normal on any other board or newsgroup. I replied, but of course my reply was deleted by TBD along with who knows how many others.
Info on prior mass delete that occurred in December 1999, my 12/99 Public response which was deleted:

I answered many direct questions with direct answers. A few posters mentioned how helpful sexwork.com and related help had been to them. Some topics even ended in "Dave please reply" wanting information and some good discussions were started, before you deleted them.

Then someone posting as TBD, comes on the board threatening to close it because of me. Others jump in wondering why. One person wrote that I had provided more good information than anyone else ever had, and he was asking why on earth TBD was attacking me, when I was one of the most valuable sources of info on the board. (The WOW reply to TBD's note that is also now gone).

Shortly after all my posts and those that asked TBD why I was being attacked, disappeared from the board. Since then, there are other posts upset about the censorship of me, such as "Censorship if your not in the click" but that post, not by me, will probably be censored off as soon as TBD reads it.

BTW since it will probably be gone soon it says, "well it is to bad that the webmaster of this page feels that open cencorship is nessasary. I have had my posts deleted also. I guess if your looking for valid information on The Escort Scene in Arizone you will not get it from this so called free medium. It has become a advertising sight for High priced or and over priced escorts that can't stand the competion from more reasonable providers."

Interestingly a post that says "Dave feedback please" is still there but my reply answering his question has been deleted.

Most of my replies said nothing about sexwork.com, just answered peoples questions directly. I even started deleting my signature line with the sexwork.com link in the space provided on every reply form, in case that was the board monitors big problem after getting an E-mail from "TBD" accusing me of spaming his board and that he was "pissed". He also said, "You make a lot of lofty claims but seems you don't live up to them". I replied back asking what on earth he was talking about, but never got a reply other than the deletion of all my posts. I never made any claims, other than there were many great reasonable cost providers in Phoenix, but for legal protection couldn't name them in TBG's public forum, but suggested another option where there are hundreds of reviews of local providers shared privately.

Sadly the idea of sharing ideas freely is not possible on the Phoenix board, as other's have posted and had their posts also censored off. If seems that if you don't just tow the line and support the type of high cost providers that promote themselves freely on the board, your not welcome. Interestingly, one of the higher priced active provider/posters even wrote me supporting my activity agreeing with my view that choices are important. There had also been posts asking where are the good providers in Phoenix are, their must be more than 4 that were not affordable to many on the board. All those posts were also censored off.

TBD seemed to be a nice community with somewhat more privacy that just the asp newsgroup. But in my view, it has been ruined by censorship just when the community was getting comfortable and new friends were being made.
From a active LA hobbyist
I guess I have to throw my 2 centavos in here. It is my opinion that TBD is strictly a commercial enterprise, thinly disguised to be a benifit to all, but really promoting certain escorts who highly benefit by their participation and moderation of the TBD board. I believe TBD is still active and also highly benifits. The whole deal is this. To present the ladies as beautiful, loving people who care about  their clients and who provide an extrodinary experiencxemmands,in many cases,far more than the going rate in the area. Say anything or suggest that the cost is too high or post anything negative regarding certain ladies will bring instant deletions and or personal attacks from the moderators and or TBD. When I began to get the drift, I baited them with several posts and got the response I knew I would get. They are not that smart. There is no doubt LE looks at TBD, but I'm sure what brings the stings such as Long Beach or Seattle. I heard Seattle was targeting visiting escorts. Maybe there was a reason why? Maybe some of the local girls had some influence?????
In conclusion, if you have actually read all this, and not just frothing at the mouth, I only request one thing. You stop censoring posts and let the Phoenix board be the great community it could be, without your interference and your destroying it as anything other than an adverting forum for a few high priced providers.

If you change your ways I will stop making public comments about your actions. But if your censorship or your false denials continue, I feel it is important for the benefit of all, that people realize what you are doing. Not by making emotional rants, but by documented examples such as I have done in this letter.


Dave in Phoenix

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