Sexwork Cyber Center
By Dave in Phoenix
dave@davephx.com
PO Box 55045, Phoenix AZ 85078-5045

Promoting Intimacy and Other-Centered Sexuality

Thailand Intimacy & Healthy Sexuality Research Report

COPYRIGHTED 1999 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED - MAY BE REPRINTED OR QUOTED FROM ONLY IF CREDIT IS GIVEN Sexwork.com., and/or show link to page where material was quoted if you are getting it from our website. I request a note where it was quoted or republished or if reprinted a copy of the publication. I hope the information is helpful to many, but want to be sure it is properly credited as I try and do for all material I use.

Foreign "Girlfriend sex" vs. U.S. Sexworkers

While there are a few wonderful U.S. honest providers, they are rare compared to the huge majority of scam artists. This is partly due to the repressive sex laws that outlaw consenting adult freedoms. But more importantly is the attitude of many honest legitimate providers in the U.S. There have been many discussions about why many American men prefer foreign Sexworkers. Again there are exceptions in the U.S. of wonderfully warm providers and rip offs by foreign providers. But overall there is no contest - foreign providers provide more intimacy and have less of an attitude which is why so many men, including myself travel abroad for sexual fulfillment.

A newsgroup discussion, one of many is a good example that explains the view of many in the U.S. that enjoy sexual variety. They are public posts, however for privacy I have omitted most names. I have left in the screen names of some providers since they are very well known and publicly outspoken on the newsgroup. I have not corrected any misspellings. I simply share them as they appeared other than being edited down to excerpts to show the most important points and an occasional (bracketed comment by me) for clarification:

Newsgroups: alt.sex.prostitution
Subject: [ASP] Why do American service providers have such bad attitudes?
Date: 29 Jun 1999 04:29:50 GMT

What pisses me off is that American women in general have this bitchy, pissed off attitude, as if they're doing you a favor for that $150. It's always rushed and it's quite easy to tell that they're just counting the minutes until they are back out looking for the next sucker.

Let's see: (let me do the math)

In Thailand, for 2500 Baht ($63) - wonderful 1 hour massage and full service with an incredibly beautiful woman that you can pick out of a group of 100

In the Philippines, for 2000 Pesos ($50) - all nighter with a beautiful woman you can pick out of the gazillions of nightclubs in Pasay and Makati.

In Australia for A$180 ($120) - 1 hour all you can do session with great rooms, hot tubs, and amazingly stunning blondes and brunettes.

The same trends can go for Canada, Amsterdam, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Mexico, and other places that I have visited - For $150 US or less, you will be able to get incredibly beautiful women who have great attitudes and personalities and are never rushed in their service. In many cases, they sincerely ENJOY being with you, if for nothing else than the fact that you just paid them $150!!!

Meanwhile in the US (I don't even know why I bother any more), you get a shitty 5 minute handjob with a rubber glove from a bitch with a pisser of an attitude.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure there are some gems out there and I guess that's what this newsgroup is for. I just wished that in the US, hobbyists can presume high quality service with occasional exceptions rather than the all too common shitty, rushed, bitchy service.

I don't know about the rest of you but even though I make over $300K a year, I still consider $150 a lot of money. For that amount, I think I deserve at least a smile, a pleasant personality, and maybe a full 30 minutes of service and attention. Is that asking for too much?
===============================================
The following are excerpts from various replies I thought were of particular interest:

Honestly, I can say that almost without exception the experience with "pay for sex" was dramatically better (outside the U.S.) . I believe that this was due to several factors. 

First and foremost the cultural attitude about providors (particularly in asian cultures) is not the same that it is here domestically. 

Secondly, the girl was with you for the whole evening you spent the bulk of your time with the girl in the club spending time with her so that you could see if there was "chemistry" if there wasn't the girl usually was just as interested in moving on as you were. 

The entire process of meeting your hostess and what occured between you and she was and is radically different. I have wonderful memories of trips I took and seeing parts of Asia that I would have never seen because my hostess wanted to have as much fun as I did. In those cultures (again speaking from my personal experience) the "relationship" between hostess and myself was much more than purely sexual. They were always pleasent, passionate and polite it was extreamly rare that you would find or hear about a "bad experience".

If someone were to offer the same type of experience here for a reasonable amount of money I would jump at it in a heartbeat. I just does not exist here in this country and never has. Please understand that I am not "slamming" domestic providors I am not. The two services and experiences are as different as grapes and mustard they have little in common except for the sexual aspect of what occurs. 

Clearly, there are some exceptional providors domestically. Some who post to this very newsgroup. Sadly it is not the general rule when one examines the entire population of providors. IMHO, this is due to our cultural bias about sex in general and sex workers specifically. I know this has been a long rant but I just felt like I had to throw in my perpective and my personal experiences.

Another replies
As I have often argued in ASP before, I do not think that US prices are all that unreasonable in the overall scheme of things and compared to the cost- of-living, the earning power of other professions, etc. in the US. In other words, comparing $150 worth of sexual service in SF (one of the most expensive cities in the US) with what you would get in Thailand or the Philipines or Australia or ... has to be considered in the context of what $150 would buy you in a hotel or restaurant or apartment rent or ... in the same locales. Right? In other words, $150 is pretty much a bottom-of-the-barrel price for a release in SF, and you can't expect all that much realistically.

However, I do think that you have a valid point about the typical quality of service. It is not as black-and-white as you depict it though. It is not all that hard to find excellent quality service in the US, especially if you "know the ropes" a bit, and it is by no means impossible to get bad service abroad (perhaps the worst I ever had was in a quite famous brothel in Germany), especially if you don't "know the ropes" there. Nevertheless and overall, the quality and especially the quality-to-price ratio is distinctly worse in the US and elsewhere. I find it hard to imagine anyone with substantial experience abroad and in the US disagreeing.

The subject line asks why. The obvious, and I suspect correct, answer is that anything to do with sex is subject to such a strange, grim and often contradictory set of cultural values in the US that it gets distorted into a much less agreeable form than one encounters in more enlightened parts of the world. In my opinion, this is as true for personal romantic sexual matters as it is for professional commercial ones. And, of course, in the case of prostitution, these cultural values get expressed as severe legal persecution, so that they cannot be ignored even by those who do not share them. There are cultures and countries that are worse off, in this respect, than the US though. Consider much of the Muslim/Arab world for example. A more extreme case of the same effect I'd say.

In reply an American provider proved his point by saying:
smart_sexy_bbw@my-deja.com wrote:
>You can tell??? Hey asshole, you know NOTHING about me. 
>As for the rest of your illobical crap -

In response another man wrote:

By the attitute in her resonse, I can tell that smartandsexy is the type of American whore that you describe - arrogant, bitchy and stuck-up. The main reason that I despise the American whores so much is that they choose their line of work even though they have other ways to make a living. In Asia, they sell themselves because they need to eat. Here, they just want to drive around in a Mercedes.

It is for this reason that I refer to the Americans as whores. It is what they do by choice. They enjoy doing it and are usually not even looking for a way out. In the Philippines, the women will take any out they can. They are nice girls put into a bad situation by circumstance. Ever ask an American whore to go out on a date with you? She figures, why do it for free when I can make a couple of hundred in an hour. Most Asian prostitutes, given the choice, would rather become you girlfried for free than fuck you for money.

That is why American prostitutes are the only ones desearving of the title WHORE.

An Asian man replies:
Being an Aisa man (as you can tell from my writing) staying in the US for about 2 years so far. My 'international' experience is that (the) origrial post basically is correct.

The problem is why american invented Car but japen make it better.why we enjoy Japen food,Chinese food,but where is american food?-humberg?

Why food as example? well, in Asia,we believe sex and food are two major important things in human's life- so we make them as Art

It is business. OK, another example: In Asia,you buy something,they say thank you,AND,they walk you to the the door,thank you again...,In US,they say thank you and then they trun their back to catch up another customer...

I don't think American providers have bad attitudes, it is just culture things. However,compare pleasure in sex with money exchange, Asia is better. There is no girlfriend sex (in US) even need to be emphinesed in Asia, it is a norm.

Another
From my limited experiences I must agree with those that think "most" and I repeat "most" American providers have attitudes. Not all. I think the issue is a cultural and legal one. The conservative nature of American society looks down upon sex and abhores prostitution. Along with LE (law enforcement) issues, this immediately puts the girl in a defensive role. But as a hobbyist only you know that you're not LE and so some degree of separation is expected. 

Depending on the girls looks and volume of business she may or may not think you are worth the effort to be nice. Let's say she charges $200...at one client per day that is $1400 in a week....alot of people don't make that much in salaries working 40+ hrs a week and she did it in 7 hrs. That can lead to bad service alot of times.

In other countries the women genuinely want and need your money. They appreciate the business much more. Adjusting for currency and GNP, $50 for sex in Mexico would be like spending about $300-400 for it here. But down there they prefer the US dollar so there is added value. The women will treat you like a king....even the most beautiful ones. Supply and demand always rules, in other countries there is more supply than demand leading to greater competition resulting in better prices and service. In the US there is more Demand than Supply allowing the girls to charge more and be more picky about who they see.

My suggestion: visit other countries if possible. If not, then stick with average to above average looking escorts in the US. The model quality gorgeous ones will almost always be less friendly.

I (davephx) replied about my recent experience at Los Angeles Hostess Clubs:

I just returned from visiting hostess clubs and a few strip clubs in Los Angeles. What strikes me every time I meets lots of women from all over the world, isn't the difference is price (since virtually the same in LA) but the intimacy factor. I enjoy good touch and intimacy just as much or more than good sexuality.

Over the last two days I met women from Brazil, Columbia, Vietnam, Korea Germany, Hungry etc and only 1 American..all in LA. As in my more extensive trip in December when I met 30 different women, and as in my experience in San Francisco strip clubs there is one thing about American women that stands out so clearly. They are the least responsive to physical intimacy vs all the other cultures whose women I meet. Of course there are exceptions. I've met some American women in Phoenix that love intimacy as much as I do, but in my travels the pattern seems to be overwhelming. I do believe it has a lot to do with our culture.

Only in America is sex so dirty it is often only for tease and titillation viewing the women's body as a sex object vs legal wonderful sexual opportunities available in most every other culture except in the U.S. This sex exploitation, tease and lack of sexual outlet in the U.S. also seems to greatly effect women's attitudes and disinterest in general in non-sexual physical intimacy. Instead of girlfriend like sex (rent a girlfriend for an hour) it is all business and sex sex sex for most American women. The reason may be American men are also less interested in intimacy just sex,, sex, sex. So I don't blame American women, more our culture that results in sexual depravation for something so natural and healthy as good sex.

I'm on an Asian mailing list where I use to think it was unfair when many on the list often referred to American women as cold, spoiled bitches. But over the years I also find them the most cold vs almost any other nationality.

But even with just physical sex, it seems to be more enjoyable with an Asian, Latino, or European who is much more comfortable with her sexuality, where sex is just a natural heathy part of life, vs the dirty and negative views in our culture which effects American providers attitudes.

Many men when introduced to the more open attitudes of women in other cultures, no longer have any interest in the typical American women. And the attraction is far beyond just differences in cost of sex between American vs Asian experiences.

Another response to other reply from Japan:

You are saying that girls that are so poor have no choice but to be friendly, etc.. This is orthogonal to the topic. In Japan, for example, where I live, prices are MORE expensive than the US. The girls do NOT do it to eat. They do it to get good money. But they do it well, with a nice and friendly attitude. And that is what counts.

Most of the providers on this ng don't seem to understand what most men want. Most guys no want want any kind of bitchiness under any circumstance. We come to you to have fun and get away from exactly that kind of bitchy attitude. What you (a provider) might think of as a reasonable no-nonsense attitude is exactly what we find bitchy. We mostly don't want a woman to dictate how this and that is going to be. We want a nice, pretty, friendly girl that makes us feel smart, intelligent, sexy, and a great lover, if only for an hour.

A lot of people on this group are confusing the issues. You think that people like asian providers for the cheap price, and that they are exploiting poor village girls. This is besides the point, and untrue. If you have EVER been in asia, you know that most girls are in their twenties. And a lot of asian girls charge just as much as US girls. The difference is ATTITUDE. 

I wish HotCoCo and ssbbw would wake up and get the point. This has nothing to do about expoitation of women, pedophilia, or anything else. It has to do with Asian girls generally providing what men want. It's not about the price.

Get off your ridiculous, racist, and frankly embarrassing high horses where yourant and rave about child exploitation, feminism, and what-not whenever someone mentions asia. For crying out loud grow up. The problem is with YOUR attitudes. Not your prices. Your attitudes. Why do you think 99% of the reports will be favorable if the girl had a great attitude, but not so great looks, and very bad if the girl was hot, but a bitch? Stop being petty and uppity, be friendly, and watch your numbers triple. Asia has figured it out. Why can't you?

Another
The Asian women are not proud of what they do, but have to eat and support their families. They are real emotional people. The sex is special. There is a relationship. After you have sex, they want to spend time with you WITHOUT WANTING ADDITIONAL MONEY. It is something you could only understand if you have been there. It may sound abusive, but it is only so with abusive men (usually Asian men). That is why they prefer American clients.

The American prostitute thinks "I can make a lot of money by selling my body. Why shouldn't I, it is only sex".

The Asian prostitute thinks "I have no money to eat, so I will have sell the most precious thing to me. Allough I have to sell myself, sex is still a wonderful thing between two people and I will not let it become just a gross physical act."

I, Dave replied:
That's the key I tried to say in an earlier post. They have no emotional connection with their client, vs women of most other cultures who seem to better connect even if its for the moment.

The lack of respect or dignity which they may not even realize is lacking is due to our culture which treats sexuality as something so "dirty" vs. just wonderfully natural in most other cultures.

Just like in Asia secondary wives are common and no big deal. It isn't talked about a lot but just accepted. It isn't that sex is "precious" to them like we have been taught sex is in the U.S. Sex is just a natural normal desire like having good food.

Then jumps in our American female sexworker:
smart_sexy_bbw@my-deja.com wrote:
>You want to have sex, but can't get a girlfriend. (Hmmm, I wonder
>why?) So you go to a provider to fulfill your "needs" but at the same
>time, due to your ingrained cultural biases, despise her because you
>think she does not consider sex "special". I won't bother going into
>the difference between animalistic physical needs and psychological
>attitudes because you are obviously too STUPID to understand.

I, Dave reply:
Now here we have a typical American provider. Gets all upset, calls names and has a hissy fit over the issue instead of trying to have intelligent discussion.

OK, I'm an older man in 50s. I meet zillions of American "normal" women. I am relatively attractive but not a stud and interested more in intimacy, Esalen type caring massage, caressing, tenderness and sensual sexuality not just fucking and sucking. No, I can't find a girlfriend. Most women my age are overweight, closed minded, and only want monogamy. I tend to be much more attracted to younger women.

In many other cultures, younger women seek older men for their wisdom, experience etc. In the U.S. women usually seek someone close to their own age.

I have wonderful intimacy experiences with foreign women in hostess clubs, some strip clubs where good non-sexual intimacy is allowed (no longer allowed in Phoenix, can't even hug, but like in San Francisco and some LA area clubs). I find most American women cold.

I am willing to pay for good physical intimacy just like I am for a fine dinner but enjoy the sincere openness and emotional connection I often have even in a paid sexworker situation with Asian, Latino, Brazilian, and European women that I seldom experience with American women.

Yes, I very much seek a real relationship that is long-term and consistent. But lacking that I choose to pay for such intimacy and sexual needs that is healthy for any human to have met.

smart_sexy_bbw@my-deja.com wrote to someone else:
>I am guessing the only reason even an Asian would have sex with you is
>because she doesn't understand English, and therefore has no clue as to
>what a twised human being you truly are.

I, Dave replied:
Again the typical American women reaction of personal attacks and resentment over a man simply expressing his views. I don't believe he ever attacked you personally was just expressing his views. But you see a need to attack him as I'm sure you will me.

You prove his point about American women! And because I am simply honest and say I am not physically attracted to BBW women, that probably makes you very mad, (showing your own insecurity) instead of just accepting my honestly for what it is..just being honest.

Then pauly6734@my-deja.com wrote:
>This country is sexually repressed ?? Where the hell have you been and
>what the hell you are talking about ?? We have sex and violence
>everyday on TV, we have dirty books and naked pictures of men and women
>in super markets and Barnes ansd Nobels. 

I, Dave reply:
That is exactly my point. We have tons of tease and titillation and using women as sex objects but real human interactive caring sexuality is repressed.

The majority morality of our culture says "save it" for marriage (be sexual ignorant) and then only with your wife (where do you lean good sex, which is much more of a skill especially for max female enjoyment than natural).

We are sexually repressed in our sexual options. Sexwork could be a great benefit to our culture if legal with more of the right women providing such professional services for more the right reasons (not desperate for money to support drugs or pimps for example).

Another provider suggested men should do more research to find good U.S. providers A reply:
I definitely agree with you that I would have much better experiences if I do some research upfront. However, I still like to point out that when I'm in Manila, Bangkok, Phuket, Tokyo, Singapore, Jakarta, etc. I can usually just go to the well known tourist areas (which all taxi drivers know), find providers very easily, and pretty much guarantee that it will be a good time. This is without doing ANY research. My gripe in the US is WHY I have to do so much upfront work in order to get excellent service. Why isn't it the norm rather than the exception?

I made the point again that much of the problem also in the U.S. is we are one of the few countries in the world where prostitution isn't tolerated whether its legal or not

Someone replied:
>Wow, I must have slept a few years and suddenly woken up to find out that
>prostitution is only illegal in the U.S. please don't tell me that prostitution is only illegal in
>the U.S.

My Response (Note this was after my Manila trip but before Thailand. The laws in Thailand are a great example. It is technically illegal but there are almost no penalties and most "special services" and Entertainment places are exempt.)

I did not say it isn't only illegal in the U.S. I said the U.S. is one of the few countries in the world where it is illegal or not tolerated.

Prostitution is LEGAL (with some restrictions that aren't that bad) in Canada, most all of Europe including England, France, Wales, Denmark, etc., most of South America including Mexico, in Israel, Australia, and many other countries. It is either legal or very tolerated in most all of Asia and even Iran has "temporary wives" which can be for only a few hours!

As long as prostitution is kept illegal, and women are persecuted for acts which harm no one, prostitute women will be subject to brutality at the hands of misogynists and moralists -- they are, arguably, the same group. And when prostitutes are treated as second class citizens, and in extreme cases, as less than human, then all women who dare to step out of their social constructs will be labeled as whores and treated accordingly. For these reasons, the rights of all women are contingent upon the rights accorded to the most vulnerable women.

Dr. Jocelyn Elders: March 1997 International Prostitution Conference highlights: Keynote speaker was Dr. Jocelyn Elders. Elders was surgeon general until Pres. Clinton fired her for supporting masturbation. Elders called for prostitution to be decriminalized. Dr. Elders has also said: "We say that [hookers] are selling their bodies, but how is that different from athletes? They're selling their bodies. Models? They're selling their bodies. Actors? They're selling their bodies." See http://www.lpt.com/

In the U.S. based our puritanical forcing a certain religious view is out of step with the rest of the world and our culture suffers because of it.

A response:
>Most of the girls in third world countries were either sold into the 
>business or landed in the business out of pure desperation.

I, Dave responded:
I disagree. This is only what certain groups want you to believe.

The horror stories about child prostitution and forced labor are in the back areas of these countries and not the tourist areas.

A few years ago, as reported by Spectator Mag, a group of U.S. social workers went to Thailand to find all these children and forced prostitution situation. They visited many bars etc and all they found was happy bargirls, all adults who choose the work.

I met many bargirls in Manila and Angeles and have been on a very active newsgroup with many from Thailand etc. The police enforce child and any assault against bargirls just as they would in the U.S.

Yes there is the area in Angeles where this occurs, but it is not where any tourist would go and police frequently to raids and makes arrests. Likewise in upcountry Thailand. It's the locals that use these forced into prostitution or desperation girls in non tourist areas.

As bargirls in Manila and Angeles told me, they think working in a factory and a 10th of the income is degrading, not being a bargirl. One very sharp gal in Makati told me how she could work at a department store or factory but she enjoys meeting men and has no moral issues about sexuality so why not make 10 times the income? That is her choice. She isn't desperate and certainly no one forced her to be a bargirl. She is an adult and she was making her choice.

Sex isn't dirty in most of Asian, Latin or European cultures like it is in the U.S. where we assume no one would choose sexwork as a profession.

>Dave,
>I respect your opinion and enjoyed your various posts very much. But
>sex and being a sex worker is dirty and is socially outcasted in most
>Asisan countries. 

Not like in the U.S. While I agree it is looked down on, it is not a legal risk like in the U.S. Part of this is since monogamy isn't a big moral issue like in the U.S. Secondary wives are common and no big deal, Buddhism is not at all sex negative like traditional Christianity.

There are "concubine villages" spring up in China where women go to be the second families to Hong Kong men. The culture just doesn't have the hang-ups or moral issues like we do in the U.S.

Most important there is no legal threat to either the providers or customers. That is the huge difference.

Another man replies: (Dave doesn't necessarily agree but this attitude is common)
I wouldn't restrict it to just hookers. American women are the bitchest, most demanding, and unattractive in the world. The last thing any male wants is a dose of in your face female sexism. Sexism is sexism. Nobody likes it, and nobody finds it attractive. And nobody cares about politico fem justifications for it, such as "well, men used to be pigs, now it's our turn"

I lived overseas for a long time, in affluent countries. In many of them, the women are educated, employed, independent, AND, still act female. And enjoy doing it. And enjoy sex simply because it is fun and feels good. Period.

Acting female isn't politically incorrect, except to american females. Many treat sex like a weapon..My call on the whole thing is simple: If they want to act like bitches, who need 'em? Plenty of fish in the sea besides US varieties.

Seems like the upcoming US fem generation may be getting a little better. I sure hope so. I think the currently middle aged male generation in the US got a real bad shake, regards fem sexism. We probably had to endure the worst generation of complaining, irrational, politicized, sexist, demanding bitches, the world has ever seen.

hothotcoco@aol.com (HotHotCoCo) wrote:
>LOL excuse me but you partake in the services boo, so WHAT DOES THAT MAKE YOU
>IF THIS IS YOUR SAD MENTALITY? lol and you wonder why some american providers
>have a bad attitude? It's because they negative bs like this from guys like
>you every day, several times a day! Do you really expect to get service with a
>smile when you make such degrading comments?

I. Dave replied:
Now that I previous just expressed my frustration with American providers upsteps hothotcoco who makes valid points. It's posts she is referring to (not her) that is also partly to blame for the "cold, bitchy" attitude some of us find in American providers. They have to put up with the attitudes of American men with attitudes like Boo.

Sadly regardless of the reason this is why so many men when exposed to Asian, Latin or European providers often prefer them over American. But its not all the fault of American providers but what they have to put up with in our culture that may be the cause of some (not all, not hotcoco) being those cold bitchy American women.

(James N.) wrote:

Many of the providers in this ng are taking these generalizations as direct personal attacks. They are not, albeit I do understand the hurt feelings from those providers that genuinely care about the service they provide.

Unfortunately, I would say that at the going rates it hardly seems worth it anymore. It's a product of our U.S. system. Is it any wonder that providers feel they have to charge $200+ an hour when they risk arrest, pregnancy, std's, unappealing clients, no shows, etc. Is it surprising that guys are upset when we spend $200+ and have no idea what we are getting in terms of looks, attitude, performance, chemistry, time. In an ideal world, both parties would meet for a drink, and the pricing and time would be based on a mutually agreed price after both parties got to know each other a little. At this point in time, Asia and some other parts of the world are much closer to the ideal.

smart_sexy_bbw@my-deja.com wrote:
James -
You make several good points. Thank you for stating things in the most objective, unemotional manner - something which many are unable to do.

I would like to point out that at the beginning of this thread most providers were more upset over the seeming lack of feeling for the Asian girls' plight, than they were over the generalization that Americans are all bad. The providers were critical of the men who appeared to care nothing for the poor living conditions, the lack of adequate money/food, etc. prevalent in Asia, specificaly for providers. However, the gentlemen who prefer Asians chose to attack said providers directly and personally. They made very few coherent arguments refuting the providers' statements - they simply chose to attack the providers for choosing to be providers, and were quite vicious; at that point it did become quite personal. Their logic is that an Asian girl who is forced into it by circumstance deserves sympathy; and American girl who chooses the biz is, by their definition, simply a cold money hungry bitch deserving of nothing but contempt. I myself have received several vicious and even threatening e-mails...all, of course, from cowards with fake e-mail addresses.

Due to the risks you mentioned, I do not negotiate price after a meeting. My price is set. However, I provide discounts for frequent fliers. I offer holiday and birthday specials. I also provide steep discounts for anyone wishing to take a voluntary health screen. In fact, I myself take a spectrum of tests (7!) and present my results to any potential client as assurance of MY health status. (These are repeated every 6 months, and yes, I ALWAYS practice safe sex - I only test to provide reassurance) I also require a "Meet-n-Greet" with any potential client. This is a lunch or dinner date in which we get to know each other - personality, attitude, desires, fantasies, boundaries, etc. It is at least an hour, and as long as the gentleman would like. I have had it last 3 hours. I travel anywhere within 25 miles to any place the client chooses, for his convenience. I don't care if he wants me in jeans for gyros or a formal dress for an upscale restaurant. All I ask is that he buy the meal as a token of appreciation, there is NO charge otherwise. Since it is his choice of locale, it can be $ 10 or as expensive as he wishes. This is a no obligation meeting with complete "walk-away" rights. If he is not pleased with me, or I with him, we walk away with no hard feelings. I have even accompanied a client to take a health screen when he was too uncomfortable to go by himself - between travel and the inevitable wait at the Dr.'s office, 3 hours of my time, gratis.

I have lost a large amount of business from men who don't want the "hassle" of a Meet-n-Greet. They want to call an agency and get a girl in 30 minutes. So what may be "ideal" to you is not so to others. I used to require a health screen of any client - and lost tons of business. I did ok, certainly not great. I only dropped the requirement 2 weeks ago to increase my client base in order to finance an incall location complete with hot tub, fireplace, etc. Sad that in order to provide a comforting, welcoming, relaxing, pampering atmosphere I - and they - must take more health risks.

Most of my clients run "over time" - I am not a clock watcher. I listen to their woes and celebrate in their happinesses. I provide scalp, body and foot massage, pedicures if they so desire, affection, a sympathetic ear, intelligent rapport, well-considered advice if desired, and release of sexual tension. I am in Chicago where the average girl is $ 300 - $ 350; I charge $ 225.

I don't know what else I can do to ensure a pleasant experience. Swing from the chandelier?

I, Dave replied regarding her first paragraph:
What does the poor Asian prostitute have to do with tourist sex in Asia? All the mistreatment simply isn't occuring in the tourist areas.

I had a long phone discussion with the person who built the original Firehouse chain of bars in the Ermita district of Manila in 1981. By 1985 he had five locations including the Pit Stop. One of his clubs was in Newsweek back in the 80s as the best run Gentlemen club in the world.

He recalls an experience with all the PI troops coming to close all the Manila bars. Bargirls were taken to a Catholic rescue group which was used to help girls in local whorehouses where the women were often underaged and forced into prostitution under terrible conditions, barely fed etc. But these conditions just aren't found in the tourist bars.

The Catholic rescue group offered the bargirls rice and to rescue them from their situation. Of course the bargirls kept asking "what are you rescuing us from? We had a big steak last night in an expensive restaurant, why do you think you need to feed us rice?" Please, we don't need rescuing thank you.

The bargirls in the tourist areas of Asia are very well fed and choose sexwork. They do not need your pity or misplaced concerns!

Regarding the medical risks someone wrote:
>Just as an observation, every six months would not provide me any
>assurance. In my business, any model/actress with later than 60 days
>med screen, wont be accepted on the set. Even over 30 days draws
>some questions.

I, Dave replied:
But she always uses a condom.

Her clients are very low risk.

Unless they are also bisexually anally active or sharing IV drug needles, a heterosexual male has extremenly low risk of being HIV+ if he is not in these two categories, which most men going to higher class (not street walkers or drug addicts) rarely are.

smart_sexy_bbw@my-deja.com wrote:
>BTW - the HIV test I required from my clients didn't mean much, health-
>wise. My greatest risk is in BBBJ - and the chemical makeup of saliva
>effectively kills HIV, which is actually a weak virus. I am at more
>risk from herpes, gonorrhea, etc.

I, Dave replied:
Very good observation and very true.

Back to the foreign vs. U.S. provider issue another man wrote:
I finally wised up and save myself up for the few occasions I get to visit boystown in Nuevo Laredo. I have given up on the hassles, bullshit and other games they play in Austin and San Antonio and everywhere else in the U.S. and just enjoy myself in old Mexico. For what you paid for a rubber glove - probably would have been better by yourself job - I've had two attractive girls at the same time. The hell with the U.S. crap; until we catch up with some of our neighbors our hobby is better practiced overseas.

A reply:
Right On! I spend ALL MY MONEY in Costa Rica, Mexico, and Guatemala. I've had nothing but BAD SERVICE in the US and EXCELLENT SERVICE south of the border. The providers here would starve to death if all guys knew the secrets of the Latinas!

Another:

I know lots of men who are far more than halway decent to their wives, and whose wives still ration sex, or let themselves get fat and unattractive.

I'd rather get involved with a Manila bargirl than with the majority of the "straight" women I've met in the US. She'd know how to treat a man far better than the latter, who are mostly selfish and interested only in themselves.

Maybe it's not just American providers that have bad attitudes, but American women in general? I'll be sticking to Asian women, both here and there; haven't gone wrong yet.

Then in response to a bunch of the typical posts of how Americans are exploiting Asian women a good response:

I did not notice anybody addressing a few of your inept insults and off-the-wall pointed questions... so I shall.

First, don't EVER assume or class me or others here with a broad brush stroke - as being "Asian Exploiters"! I've done more humanitarian work around the world than anybody i know on this newsgroup. AND I've NEVER exploited anybody in my life, and I'm sure that neither have most who you oppose in this thread. What have you ever done, except point fingers and call names, i wonder?

Many of us HAVE lived & worked in SE Asia... some of us for long periods of time. Have you? Have you been anywhere, i wonder? I doubt it.

You asked: "how many of these asian girls 'choose' this lifestyle?"...

Answer: 90% or more! It is the best damn job in the country. Many make more than first-second & third-year doctors! I know this for FACT, first hand. The sale of humans into prostitution is very limited these days. Has been for 15-years or more. You'll still find it in very out-of-the-way locals... NOT the venues that typical tourists EVER venture. You read too many fairytales.

You asked: "what was the percentage of boys to girls in the profession in SE Asia?"

Answer: About equal. The gay venues are very popular these days, as are WHITE FEMALE TOURISTS who come to play! But what this has to do with this thread is beyond me! As a note: The age of these providers are also - as a vast MAJORITY - over 18. Youngest are seldom, if ever under 16 these days! I'd suggest you educate yourself before ranting about things you know nothing about. Same goes for the rest of you people who can't seem to grasp real life. You baffle me with your ignorance. The truth is easy to find, if you'd open your eyes. Reminds me of the old saying: "You can't see the forest because of all the trees..."

I have no problem with USA provides charging whatever the market will bear. I'll just not trouble myself with them. It makes no sense to me. But, I'm not in dire need of 'dates' either. Besides, it's less the money and more the attitude and looks that strike me as being askew. But, whatever - to each their own misery.

This will be my final post on this newsgroup. It is getting far too childish and twisted with self-serving morals from people who are not in any position to judge.

"ken" wrote:
>If your father had sold you into prostitution when you were fifteen, should
>I not have sex with you today. 

I, Dave replied:
Actually this is closer to biblical marriage where the father sells his daughter for the bride price as 12/13 based on a family deal. It wasn't prostitution, but there was no love needed, just a deal between families often for power.

Not to mention concubinage (women as breeders) was an official legal status. And adultery was only wrong for a married women, never a sin for a married man as long as the "other women" wasn't married (owned) by another man.

Yet it is the Christians that attack consenting adult prostitution (which biblically there was nothing wrong with "common" prostitution not idolatry in the Temples) but are ignorant of the biblical example of ownership of women and the sexual morals of the Hebrews in biblical times.

"ken" wrote:
> Funny how none of the girls
>over there complain. Instead, they fight over me.

I, Dave replied shortly after my Philippines trip:
It is something that every American male should experience. Being mobbed by many 19-24 year old, very attractive Asian women as I was, especially in Makati, all wanting to touch you and seduce you to take them home with you for the night and your cost less than $50 for the night including bar fine and tip. Yet a very happy bargirl.

'Ken" wrote:
>When dealing with independants in Asia, the fee is always paid AFTER sex.
>Often, the amount is not even discussed until the morning. 
>Also, Asian women tend to be relatitvely small and shy, so if the guy didn't
>pay, they are screwed. So why doesn't it happen? 

I, Dave replied: 
VERY good point. American men pay afterwards an amount that makes "bargirl happy" since the man WANTS to, since he appreciates the good service...so opposite of many (not all) American experience"

(Sdwndr66) wrote wrote about the non-tourist area Asian child providers:
> Are they any less
>deserving of our attention because they don't work in "tourist spots"? Just
>because you don't frequent them doesn't make it any less wrong,

I, Dave replied
No but it is not relevant to the arguments the US providers were making trying to make it as if by going to Asian providers tourists are participating in the child and forced labor situation.

There are all sorts of world conferences and the countries themselves are upset about what is going on and frequently makes arrests and go after these" bad" situations. They are dealing with the problem as are world conferences. All of which I support, but none of which have any relevance whether we should go to the sex tourist areas.

Note: I wrote this before some of my cultural understanding from Thailand trip. While I am against child prostitution the question is "What is a child?" In biblical times a boy age 12 and girl age 13 were adults who could marry. Also what right do we have to impose our morality on Asian culture especially since it can be argued in Buddhism, it is an honor for the child to support her family by sexwork which I discuss in detail in Buddhism discussion related to Thailand.

jesse8x@my-deja.com wrote:
>So any 13, 15, or 16 year old girl you see in
>the bars are there by their choosing.

I, Dave replied:
Except no tourist area bar would hire them unless they are 18, and have the required ID and STD documents. I am quite sure 18 is the minimum age to be a legal sexworker in all of Asia, if not please correct me if you are sure.

Note that age of consent is often younger such as 14 in Canada. But its is still illegal to be or use a sexworker even in Canada until age 18.

"Bella" a U.S. provider wrote:
This is what I ask of you......a reasonable request after all the cussing, flaming and shouting over "Why USA, Why Asia, Why Cuba and so forth.

I have asked this many times since I began this career and I have used the feedback and done what I and my clients feel is a fair job.

My question is this...... what exactly do you gents expect from your American provider??

xxxx  wrote:
A very good question, and I was just getting ready to email basically the same thing...

What I expect from a "provider" is an "experience", and I'm willing to pay for it. I'm not just lookign for a body to screw.

I would define "experience", as an interactive exchange. I dont care if the woman has to fake, I expect to have an experience, as if I was the greatest lay on the planet. I also expect her to listen, and interact with my conversation, and act as if she really cares.

I think to sum this up the simplest, what I look for is a sex actress. Somone whom cares about the overall experience.

I dont expect to pay a heathly sum, for someone to just lay there, nor do I expect to hear someone else's problems. For that one hour, she is mine, heart and soul. I've paid for her, not just her body. Just a body is far cheaper than what providers ask for.

I also expect someone to be on time, clean, as described, and get the full allotted time.

I spent 4 years in the USMC overseas, and agree with what alot of others have said. I've seen,and experienced the same things. I've visited Taiwan, Okinawa, Japan, Korea, PI, Malaysia, Thailand, and other places, where a provider makes a man feel like a king, and at a whole lot less than 200+$ and hour.

Anyway, the above I think covers my definition, your mileage may vary.

Dave adds, some of us aren't looking for the sex actress but rather a sincere girlfriend type of experience, even if only for an hour. This desire for rental girlfriend type experiences has been widely discussed in this newsgroup many times. 

StudDog says:
Bella,
You sound like a great person and, if I ever get to Portland, I intend to viset you. If all US provider were like you I don't think you would hear much complaning. OTOH I have seen a lot of posts about the "cash and dash" kind of providers that are all too easy to run accross in the US. This is also about more than the machanics. We have chatted on IRC and I have a good idea of how nice a person you are, but that is not usually the case. Often it is "you pay your money and you take your chances." You can shift the odds a bit in your favor by research, but it is often a crap shoot.

The diference I have noticed with Mexican women (the only non-US group I have experience with) is that they GENERALLY are warmer and seem to realy care if you have a good time or not. They are easer to get close to and less garded. Of course the fact that it is not agianst the law may have something to do with it.

I think that too many of the providers here have taken the fealings expressed as a personnal attack. It is not. Like all generalizations this hase many exceptions, but it also holds some truth. Personnaly, I love all women and in almost all cases I can find something I like in all of them. It's just a matter of how hard you have to work to find it.

James says:
Unfortunately, we don't have an enviroment here in the U.S. that's very helpful. Here's a quick comparison:

1) In Asia LE (Law Enforcement) looks the other way. No hassles.

2) Economics. Rates are lower because cost of living is cheaper, more competition, less legal risk, etc.

3) Choice. In Asia you can go to a parlor, bar, barbershop, etc. and have a choice from 10-100 woman. In many cases you get to talk and see if there is any chemistry. In the U.S. you could waste an entire evening setting up an appointment, driving an hour or more to get to the providers place, only to find the provider was not what you expected.

Bella, just do the best you can. I'm sure you will do ok. There's very little you can do to change the "blind date" system we have in the U.S. and the woman who take advantage of it at $300 a pop.

"ken" writes regarding differences in quality and language issues:

If you want your partner to be educated, interesting, English speaking etc, then you are right - Asia is not known for that. There is a trade off here if that is what you are looking for. But consider that while you may get all those things for about $300 an hour in the US, you are getting only one hour. So is she really a partner, or just a prostitute? I would say that in Asia, while you give up the aformentioned qualities, you do get someone that will spend the night, want to spend the next day with you, and you will often have the feeling that you are with a girlfriend. Just because she is poor and un-educated does no mean that she is just a toy and beneath you. I believe that money and education has nothing to do with the quality of person and have found the poor people usually are of better character. I have spent several weeks with the same prostitute in Asia and cannot see how she is less than a partner than one hour with a high end US prostitute. I would say that she is far more

Also, Even in Cambodia, the "bottom of the bottom" for cheap sex in Asia, there is a high end. I asked my guide to take me to the best place in Penom Penh, money no object. Even in Manilla or Bangkok the top-of-line would be very expensive, so I had never experianced the best before. I was taken to a floating restaurant, a very impressive place. As I walked up the gangplank, I was greeted by about 20 absolutely stunning women in evening wear. There was a large dancefloor and I really felt like someone special. I couldn't decide who I liked as they were all so stunning (and I even felt intimidated), so my guide asked the waiteress to bring the best one over to the table. The rest is a long story, but basically I danced with, talked to and later fucked an educated, beautifull, charming woman. I still remember the wonderfull smell she had, and the perfect way she dressed and wore her makeup. I felt I had the Heidi Fleiss girls of Cambodia, and the whole evening including food and drinks for three at the best night club in Cambodia was about $80 ($40 for her, the rest for everything else). She stayed the entire night and money was not discussed once.

The point is, just because you are in Asia, it does not mean that you cannot have a first class experiance, and it will cost a lot less. In the US, I would price a girl like that at about $1000 a night, and about $150 in Bangkok or Manilla.

As for myself, I enjoyed the experience, but it is not my scene. I much prefer the local brothel girls that throw themselves at me for $5.

Another response to someone else attacking the exploitation of Asian women from "Doc Wildwood" (NOTE: his name and quotes used with his permission I've had some very interesting E-mail discussions with him.  He is VERY qualified based on extensive experience in Asia but these details he wishes to remain private):

You are still trying to convince yourself that there is this huge 'dark side' to the Asia sex biz. You wonder if any of us who support the Asian Trade have ever been outside of the 'big cities'... and that you are sure that our service would be so much more degraded in such off-the-map locals...

Well, here i am. Ask me. I've been all across Asia. From Bangkok to Pattaya to Phuket to Chiang Mai to Chiang Rai to Mai Sai to Khon Kaen to Ban Pakkard to Chiang Khan to Phnom Penh to Siem Reab to Gia Dinh to Can Tho to Da Nang to Takua Pa to Davao to Digos to Cebu to Subic to Vinh... and so many more that my fingers will surely cramp before i'd manage to post them all. My point is that I've seen most of what Asia has to offer. The services are equally good for locals as for tourists, or close. The Asian men expect such (for the most part). And the overall sense of fair-play in Asia holds true across all economic levels. Now, naturally, some shitty areas of large cities will have local dives that no man of my ilk, nor yours, would set foot in. This is true everywhere, but more so in the States.

Actually the local brothels in the up-country tend to have younger girls, fresh from the farms. And yes, SOME will be in these 'local's brothels' due to reasons other than free will. Most, if not all, will also be of local legal age. But again, these ARE NOT the areas that us 'asian-seekers' spend out time. I've been to many such places on a professional basis. TRUE: In places like Thailand, the cream rises to the top. The 'top' being the major cities. Hence the best in the 'trade' move to these cities of their own FREE WILL to make more money. Naturally, tourists also visit these cities for 80-90% of all pay for play in Asia. And this IS what we are talking about. Not the apples and oranges that you keep trying to pull from your magic bag. But even your apples and my oranges are not so festered as you would think. You need to get on a plane and see for yourself, and stop pre-judging so blindly out of hear-say and (or) a one-time experience.

I'm a sociologist by schooling. I've worked the brothel scene professionally. This is why I hold such strong views. I'm now a writer. The bottom line is that you are simply way off-base with most of your arguments . To the point that i find myself wondering why anyone would think this way. Don't believe all of the media BS and sociology crap that many will spew forth to push their own agenda. I'm a member of both media and social studies... we can't be trusted! <G>

In short, most of your arguments are simply wrong. At least within the context of this original argument. I'll be happy to answer any honest queries you may have. As there is far too much manure being spread around.

In response to the how the Marines coming to Pattaya, Thailand might effect providers, "Doc Wildwood" says:

I don't agree that 3,000 Marines and Navy dudes can somehow make an Asian town's providers all cold and rushed. It can make SOME this way. I'm in Pattaya every year when the 'boys' come in. It changes some girls, but mostly just drives the price up a few bucks. And literally, only a few bucks. I can always out-bid a military dude! <G> I actually enjoy being in Pattaya when the military are parked in the gulf. I like drinking with the boys. I've been known to barfine an entire bar for our service men. But, only after about a dozen biah Singha (local beer). Anyway, I hope people here have learned some truths. And please, feel free to ask about whatever worries you in the SE Asian Realm. I have nothing to gain, and only wish to educate and in turn, learn myself.

Regarding the cost of travel to Asia to save money on providers:
(Sdwndr66) wrote:
>You can bring up economics until you're blue in the face, but there are those
>who either don't have to pay to fly over there or don't mind shelling out a
>couple of grand to pay $50. Either way, somebody is paying a lot of money for
>sex. 

I, Dave replied:

Actually it is cheaper to go to Thailand than many places in the U.S. IT just takes a lot longer. Hotels are very cheap also because of the currency difference.

You can go Courier from LA to BKK for $400 RT but give up some of your luggage space.

Bucket shops often have $500-$600 RT. And don't always need long advanced reservations, just depends on seats available.

I went EVA airlines Evergreen Duluxe with larger seating for about $800 RT Phx-SFO-Taipai-Manila. I was happy to pay more for the nicer service, wider/larger seats than coach. Still not THAT expensive with less than a weeks notice. ( NOTE: I also paid about $800 RT to Thailand on Evergreen Deluxe Service but much cheaper fares are also available)

Doc Wildwood replied:
Just a quick aside - Dave is 100-percent correct in the cheap travel / hotel comment - My last two round-trip flights between Bangkok-Minneapolis & Bangkok-Seattle were $499.00 and $550.00 on NWA. These were special deals, but it is EASY to find tickets under $800.00.

Hotels in BKK or anywhere in SE Asia are very modestly priced as well. Decent a/c, full-service hotel rooms can be had for $15.00 - $20.00 in Pattaya and $25.00 - $35.00 in BKK.

Meals and taxi service is likewise very cheap all across Asia. This, because of the dollar's power over the local currency.

Combine all this with a very tourist friendly attitude in places like Thailand and the Philippines, and you can't help but have a good time. Money very well spent, indeed.

Paalam na ho,
Doc Wildwood

"The teeth are smiling, but is the heart?"...

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