Typical Ignorant with an Attitude in Vancouver
For Updated Discussion Of Victoria (or Vancouver):
Especially of L'merage Bodysage (Burnaby)
ALSO SEE 9/00 and 3/01 VICTORIA, B.C. REPORT - Why I Victoria prefer over Vancouver
NOTE This is an old report mostly from 1999. I am not updating it much since I much prefer Victoria, Montreal or especially Toronto. But the experiences still may be of interest but I have not updated any links etc. - Dave
Sexwork in Vancouver, B.C.
In Canada Sexual Pleasure Is Not A Crime!
© Copyright 1999 by "Dave in Phoenix".
Any duplication of this text for the purpose of publication or post to any newsgroup or website in its entirety or any portion, without the expressed written permission of the author is forbidden. However sex related web sites can link to and newsgroup or other communications can reference this article as being available at http://www.sexwork.com/vancouver/reserach.html We want to limit distribution as much as possible so it won't fall into the hands of religious types or others that could use it for political pressure to change the very favorable sexual freedom attitude that seems to exist in Vancouver at this time. To this end the website uses a Robots META tag to prevent search engines that follow the W3 Consortium standard for spidering from indexing this report. This is an attempt to not have someone doing a web search on Vancouver, accidentally find this report.
Update as of September 2000 Vancouver Thai Massage Experiences of a Thai
Since it has been awhile since I did my Vancouver Report (especially since I now like Victoria more), I thought this update might be helpful. This report is being distributed with permission of the writer, Jason who says:
"I saw your site, and thought I'd like to share some past experiences of mine with you. Maybe the next time your up in Vancouver, Canada, you can try them out.
My first massage experience was at a place called.."New Horizon", in Burnaby. I went there, expecting Thai massage. The girl was Laotian, and gave a pretty good similar Thai massage. Not extremely intimate..but good. Then, she asked about special services. Now, this girl was beautiful, so I accepted. I was kind of foolish, I accepted a nude touch and bj session, which ran at 110.00, and the massage fee was 40.00. It was okay, but not very intimate, and really not a great time.
The second time, I saw an ad in the paper..now..this time..was a rip off. There was a young asian girl, very attractive. I went for a massage, it was at her place, and she said both, her and her roomate for 250..so I thought..okay..probably includes something..all it included was her in her lingerie, and a pat on the back, literally, and a quick condom hj. Barely even 15 minutes. Of course, you can't say anything, because someone is probably lurking near.
The third time, was in Alberta. She was an older lady, about 40(from the Phillipians)..but still very nice. I got a shiatsu style massage, and after she offered special services. Well..it was only 25 dollars for massage..and 40 for nude hj, with touch, and kissing of the breasts allowed. That again, was okay, but lacked something.
The forth time, was again in Alberta. I was bored and went to see a Thai lady. She was older, and not very attractive, but again, cheap..40 dollars massage, and 20 dollars for topless hj, including touch and kiss..so..I went for it, and wasn't really satisfied after. I like younger girls really.
The fith time..was a good time..perhaps the best..it was back in Vancouver, Burnaby, at Escape Bodysage. It was real Thai massage, The girl was from Thailand, 24, very sensual, and very personal and sweet. 40 dollars for massage, and 60 for nude hj with kiss and touch allowed. I left feeling very satisfied, and I had a good time.
The sixth time, was a repeat visit to the same Thai girl. This time it was even better, and we talked and talked. Again, same price, and same offered. Time isn't a factor here as much..and she is very sensual and slow..not fast and out you get attitude.
The seventh time..well..this time..I thought I'd try Echo bodysage..or check the rates anyway..and got burned. It was 40 for massage..and a Canadian white girl performed the massage. It was shiatsu..a massage I think which is nowhere as good as Thai..the girl was moody..quiet..and really not into it. But again..I cannot resisit the temptation..I almost did..but her voice and smile pulled me in..it was 100 here for hj..200 for bj..and 300 full..so I got 100..and she was topless..touch..but no kiss..quick..and not really great..she wasn't into it.
The eighth time..in the same night..I visited Pattis Shiatsu center. I think..because I was very dissatisified with the earlier massage. I would normally never visit a massage place in the same week..let alone the same night. Here..I had a Thai lady..about 30..she did massage for 30..and then extra hj nude for 80..but no kiss..It again..was okay..but she complained about Canadians a lot..
So, I really like Escape. The only reason I visited the latter, two after her place, was because..really to see what else there was..but Thai massage is the best." - Jason
Original Report Table of Contents
It was wonderful to explore for five days, December 25, 1998 to December 30th the sexwork options of Vancouver. The timing was somewhat bad being over the Christmas holiday. Worse was the announcement the flight attendant made as I landed in Vancouver from Phoenix. He announced that it we were dreaming of a white Christmas we didn't have to just dream it. Vancouver just had 15 inches of snow. It took 4 days of rain to wash most of the snow away. Side streets were one lane only. A provider joked that Vancouver only has one snow plow. My rented Grand Am almost got stuck a couple times.
I had read hundreds of reviews of providers on the alt.sex.prostitution (asp) newsgroup, many web sites, and had some Vancouver papers sent by mail to me so I could start researching all the ads. I sent E-mails to some providers. I tried to contact a variety of providers in different price ranges and for different types of services.
Web resources on Vancouver Providers
Certain web sites were particularly helpful. However print editions of newspapers and buy and sell magazine seem to have many more ads than their online editions. Also Westender has lots of provider ads but is not available on the web.
http://www.vancouveradultlistings.com A newer well organized, nice site for Vancouver
http://escorts-canada.com well organized by city in Canada
WESTENDER Adult Entertainment Services
http://hollywoodnorth.vancouveradults.com/index.html Extensive listings
http://www.buysell.com/class.asp?subclass=12&id=48 Personal ads includes relaxation massage and escorts MANY ADS!
http://www.adulthome.com/heterae/van.html Female artistes in Vancouver starts with web sites of providers and then huge list of providers compiled from various sources in phone number order.
http://www.vancouversun.com Vancouver Daily which also has provider ads in personals section.
http://www.vancouverprovince.com also has provider ads in personal section with some duplication from Vancouver Sun, which has somewhat larger circulation.
Other Web Sources
http://www.lyla.com Canada's Interactive Sex Industry E-Zine! Good site but more coverage of Eastern Canada and became mostly a pay site in 1999.
http://www.interpubl.com/canadas_best/ Another great Canadian site with some but limited Vancouver coverage.
http://www.discovervancouver.com Extensive tourist info, maps etc not provider ads.
http://www.vancouver-bc.com Good tourist info, not provider ads.
Most helpful however were reviews in the alt.sex.prostitution newsgroup. Least helpful are the ads themselves. Most interesting are the provider websites primarily since most have pictures on them, but reviews by customers are more useful other than for pictures.
It was so refreshing to be where sexwork is basically legal (with restrictions). There are so many great options, legal ads for full service providers, upfront discussion of prices by phone, by mostly honest providers who choose to and often very much enjoy providing pleasurable sexual service to men. Pricing was fairly uniform within ranges for different services. This is so different than in the U.S. where sexual pleasure is a crime and as a result there are many more rip-offs then honest providers. The U.S. is one of very few countries in the world that does not allow some FREEDOM of choice over our bodies and our sexuality.
My purpose is not to procure or promote
I tend to be rather complete and detailed in these types of reviews, as I take my sex research quite seriously. I look for the social implications and hopefully in the U.S. we can learn from what works and does not work regarding sexwork in other countries. I need to make it clear, I am doing this report as a reporter and not for the purpose of promoting any sexwork provider or encouraging you to go to a sexworker. I am exercising my U.S. First Amendment free speech rights and right of freedom of expression and freedom of association as guaranteed by the Canadian Charter of Rights. I receive no financial compensation from any sexworker nor am I encouraging anyone to be a sexworker. Therefore I am not procuring or living off the income of any sexworker!
My personal bias vs. more common interests of customers
When reviewing services I try and look at the physical sexual services separate from what I call the intimacy aspects. I will try and be fair in discussing both aspects.
My personal bias vs. more common interests of customers
When reviewing services I try and look at the physical sexual services separate from what I call the intimacy aspects. I will try and be fair in discussing both aspects.
My research is biased towards the more intimacy and emotional aspects of human sexual encounters rather than on just the physical sex. I discuss this at length in my other extensive reports, such as:
"The Strip/Nude Dance Club Scene - How To Enjoy High Touch, Non-Sexual Intimacy, Not Just Bodies As Sex Objects" at http://www.sexwork.com/dancers/stripclubs.html
"Intimacy in Los Angeles Hostess Clubs" at http://www.sexwork.com/dancers/lahostessclubs.html
"Lap Dancing Hints for Men who seek to share more good touch intimacy with dancers My San Francisco Experiment" at http://www.sexwork.com/dancers/SanFranExperiment.html
Intimacy to me is much more important then the more typical desire for groping, grabbing, sucking and fucking. However, based on lots of positive response from these earlier reports, I realize many other men share my intimacy desires. I will try and discuss both the physical aspects of my experiences and the intimacy aspects realizing these are different aspects of the human sexual experience.
I will be very open about my biases so readers can understand my experiences and comments in light of them. I love to share an emotional loving bond with sexworkers even if paid and even if only for the moment in a one time sharing.
I teach intimacy and massage workshops for couples and very much enjoy sharing Esalen massage type stroking of bodies, caressing, holding and hugging. I enjoy the often very positive reaction I get from women since its something many women very much enjoy but seldom experience. I am also unusual in that I have virtually no interest in oral sex. I enjoy nudity not sexy clothing. I have no interest in being teased but enjoy caring loving sensual mutual touch - or I prefer doing massage on women more than getting it much of the time. And I seek mutual interactions not just having a woman pump my penis with mouth, tits, hands or vagina.
Another personal "problem" or "advantage" I have depending on how you view it, is that I seldom orgasm (at least with a condom which of course I always use with a sexworker) I stay hard and go on for a very long time. In real relationships women find this great, but I often have to explain this to a sexworker and assure her my not cumming doesn't mean there is anything wrong with her technique or anything wrong with her. I view it as an advantage, but can frustrate some providers more use to men who cum more easily! Don't worry, old Dave can cum many times a day by self masturbation and have very powerful orgasms. I am an older man aged 52, slightly graying, tall 6-2, and slightly overweight in belly at 210 lbs. I'm far from "God's gift to women" but have developed intimacy techniques that often get very positive reactions from even sexworkers, or doing lap dances with nude dancers etc. I get a "high" from positive responses to my intimacy just as much as I enjoy sexuality. I also prefer slim women not overweight. I don't particularly like huge breasts. Enough of MY sexuality - lets go on to the research on Vancouver sexworkers!
Legal Status of Sexwork in Canada & Vancouver
For comprehensive information on the legal status in Canada see:
http://www.sexwork.com/coalition/canada.html and its link to an extensive Canadian Prostitution Reform site that goes into a great deal more detail.
Other good sites for legal information are http://www.sexatlas.com/wsg/Canada.html
The Sex Worker's Alliance of Vancouver at http://www.walnet.org/csis/groups/swav/swav.html
Commercial Sex Information Service at http://www.walnet.org/csis, which also has great links.
As the above referenced legal discussion shows the only unquestionably legal sexwork is independent outcall services. Doing incall makes your home or apartment technically that terrible sounding bawdy house. Different cities differ in their enforcement of the Communications and Bawdy House restrictions that are based on ancient laws passed in the 1800's.
Some regions are very aggressive going after sexworkers for any violations they can especially the bawdy house restrictions which make it illegal for anyone to procure or live off the earnings of a prostitute or even be in a house of a prostitute. Even husbands or boyfriends just living in the home of an incall prostitute have been charged even when they had nothing to do with her business.
For example a Canadian provider E-mailed me her terrible experience in Eastern Canada:
"In my situation in Canada, as an independent legal escort, they got around it by unsuccessfully trying to get me a few times and then going for their last straw--they charged my husband (who was gainfully employed- with living on the avails and procuring. In the end it didn't amount to much but our legal bills sent us into bankruptcy).
As progessive as it seems, there's always enough loopholes to at least cause a severe crisis. I still have no criminal record but to avoid the two week preliminary hearing as they had alot of wire tap stuff on me (about a years worth), he pleaded guilty to 'giving directions to a common bawdy house'. He never did such a thing but they got their ounce of flesh and they knew we couldn't afford another 50,000$ dollar trial.
It was very discouraging as I always prided myself that I was able to live in a country where I could work within the law. FAT CHANCE!!!! "
In Toronto a woman was ordered by police to remove her "Safe Sex Ho" button (Ho is a street word for whore, the button is produced by PSSP a group trying to protect against HIV), or face being charged with "communicating".
Fortunately Vancouver police are much more interested in real crime and go after drug related and child prostitution not other forms of sexwork. Therefore based on discussions with providers, at least at this time there seems to be little risk as a customer or provider of offering sexual services in massage parlors, incall as well as outcall full service providers, certain downtown street prostitution or nude lap dancing in strip clubs.
Let's Keep This Somewhat To Ourselves
There is a legitimate concern, especially among local Vancouver customers of too much attention being brought to the current liberal attitudes of the police and politicians in Vancouver and Victoria. They don't want lots of advertisements or broad public coverage presenting them as the "Sex Capital of the World" for fear of a reaction by the Reformists and Christian morality type groups that would get upset with their city being so liberal on prostitution. Too much of a good thing can upset the current nice situation. There is little danger of making prostitution itself illegal in Canada and no city can outlaw it. BUT, as previously discussed there are lots of restrictions in the Federal Canadian Prostitution Law, that simply are not being enforced at this time in Vancouver.
While Canadian customers don't want an influx of new customers, especially from the U.S. driving up prices, I am getting mail from providers that don't feel there is that much political risk vs the need for more customers. "Sex tourists" could help the economy, which has been so hurt by declining prices of natural resources etc. The Canadian economy needs help more than the reformists need to make sex more restrictive is the view I am getting from Canadian providers. So I am trying to reach a compromise of publishing this review but controlling distribution so someone doesn't accidentally find it, be offended and start a campaign against sexual freedom in Canada. We have lots of those folks in the U.S.!
Regarding the political situation in Vancouver, one paper that has lots of sexworker ads is the Westender, which on March 12th 1998 had an editorial saying:
"I was thrilled to see "Cute penguins have sex trade" by Guy Bennett and suggestion to make Vancouver "The Whore Capital of Canada." I have been agitating for that for three years now. Just as Bennett suggests, making Vancouver a sex-tourism capital would solve economic ills as well as create safer workplaces and working conditions for people in the sex industry." With the hard economic times currently in B.C. this especially makes sense.
The Sex Workers Alliance of Vancouver has said for a long time that prostitution is not the problem, it's part of the solution. It is so nice to see that finally people are starting to get the message. Yet just like in the U.S. there are religious groups and others that would very much like to stamp out sexual freedoms.
If zillions of new customers start flocking to Canada this would drive up provider prices and hurt current customers. We have seen this happen in other parts of the world. In the Philippines and Thailand an attractive very enthusiastic young but adult sexy prostitute may cost you $US50 for all night. In less popular countries where prostitution flourishes such as Cambodia, Indonesia or Viet Nam the same provider would only cost $10 for the entire night! True part of the savings is due to the very strong U.S. dollar vs. Asian currencies but in local currency the price of sex services has gone up significantly in the last 10 years as more men flock to Thailand for example for great sex.
We certainly don't want this to happen in Canada. I doubt if our little site and my research on Vancouver could have much impact in such a large city. But as the copyright warning in the beginning says, please do not repost this to any other website or newsgroup. I want to control the distribution and not spread the good legal status news too far, which could hurt the situation for customers in Canada.
The U.S. Currency Advantage & Exchange Tips
For Americans coming to Canada with $US we get about a 33% price discount. When I converted $US500 into Canadian at the Royal Bank of Canada Exchange Center at the Vancouver Airport I received $CAN 753.85. All prices for services I discuss will be in $CAN so its about 67% in $US. For example, $CAN 100 = $US 67!
I suggest you exchange currency at a bank not at a hotel. Never buy anything with $US. The rate at the bank at the airport was close to the official exchange rate. A much better deal than what my hotel was quoting. I also tested my instant bank card, VISA and MC in the "green machines" that are at many stores and gas stations. They all worked and gave me of course Canadian funds. I won't know how bad the exchange rate was however until I examine statements. I suspect it is much worse than the Bank's rate.
Are Canadians Cold like the Weather?
I don't mean to offend Canadians but in my admittedly limited experience I found most Canadian women even less warm and intimate then U.S. women. In my travels Latinos and Asians in my experience are far more intimate and warm, in general, than U.S. women. Based on my brief experience in Canada I fear Canadian women overall may be even colder than the average U.S. women. I realize some of the psychological, cultural reasons why U.S. women tend to be cold, vs. Latin or Asian, but I haven't a clue on any cultural reasons for Canadians to be either warm or cold. I realize I need to have a lot more experience with Canadians to confirm this initial impression. Perhaps I just didn't meet the right Canadian women! I plan to return and experience more variety.
But for men seeking physical sex who enjoy fair pricing and honest discussion of great nude handjobs with massage, blowjobs, lays, full service from a very attractive sexy women, Vancouver may be a paradise. You can be like a kid in the candy store with an almost unlimited supply of candy that won't give you a tummy ache. Hundreds of ads for legal sex services from very willing attractive providers at fairly quoted reasonable prices.
Massage Parlors - Relaxation Massage
I very much enjoy massage, especially giving it to attractive slender women. But I also enjoy receiving it and get lots of massage at home in Phoenix. I also need very good deep muscle work on my neck, back and shoulders, since I seem to carry the world on my shoulders and sometimes it hurts! I have chronic tightness that needs frequent DEEP muscle massage. So I am also on the look out for good non-sexual therapeutic massage. My favorite massage, which is almost impossible to find, is deep muscle Esalen massage that combines great muscle work with the caring, intimate yet nonsexual techniques of Esalen. This is the type of massage I do for women that so many have enjoyed. Other than at one strip club, I was not able to find any good deep muscle massage. I called lots of the "Registered Massage Therapists" asking about deep muscle work, but those that were recommended were always booked for days ahead of time.
The phone book has separate listing for Massage - Registered Therapists and just Massage that were usually "relaxation" type.
Toward the end of my stay I was getting quite desperate for real massage and saw on a web site a listing not in the phone book that was very near my hotel (Clarion/Radisson Villa in Burnaby just East of Boundary Rd - very nice executive room at $68 CAN.) I called and asked about their services and prices. She gave me a speech about their XXX Movie Stars, International Models and their standard room, which was a basic jungle room for the tiger in me. I was dumb enough to ask "Do you do any deep muscle massage?". She replied that they do only non-therapeutic massage and would I like to hear about their more exotic rooms! I didn't and although their massage fees were quite standard ($40 for ½ hour and $50 for 1 hour) I passed thinking their "special services" would be far more than I was interested in paying.
So much for me not finding good real massage. On to "relaxation massage" which is what most of you are far more interested in.
There are zillions of massage parlors, body rub or bodysage places. I knew from reading reviews I was going to pass on the very expensive ones such as Madame Cleos and Swedish Touch where full service "extras" would run $300 or more on top of the massage fee.
For example a public review of Swedish Touch reports the massage fee is $118 (with GST) an hour just to go with the very attractive big breasted (implanted) mostly blond (died or real) nice women, to a nice room where they make you wait and wait. The report said the woman gives you a massage and remains fully clothed. For $300 more ($418 total) all the reviewer got with the remaining time after the massage was a blowjob with condom which was much less than what had been promised for the extra $300. He concluded his review saying "When the hour was up - we had to stop everything in mid action. I will not return. The prices are high, the services are weak and the time is too short." Similar warning reports have been posted about Madame Cleos.
Since my return I have had a number of E-mails from people who say that Swedish Touch while very expensive is very honest and that other providers at Swedish Touch have been very upfront about the costs and delivered what was promised.
More Reasonable Priced Massage
From reading reviews and visiting a number of massage establishments the options I had heard about and prices were as expected and quite uniform at all but the most expensive places. Unlike in the U.S. where massage therapists are so scared you are a vice cop, it was refreshing to have prices and for "special services" quoted with no hesitation or concern once I was in private in the massage room. They won't quote anything but massage fees over the phone, which makes sense legally.
Technically they may be in violation of the bawdy law but at least in Vancouver they did not have any concern since apparently they simply are not bothered by the police. This also makes sense since the big concern in Vancouver is street prostitution especially along the Kiddy strip and the drug strip. It certainly makes sense for the politicians and police to ignore massage related prostitution, which keeps people off the streets.
I was told the most common request from customers seems to be a nude hand job, which costs typically $80-100 above the massage fee ($40 ½ hour). The massage time doesn't seem very strictly enforced or "special service" time isn't included. You can touch and interact with the provider during nude hj as you wish, although I was told a couple times that no finger penetration was allowed as part of her listing of services. I have no interest in "fingering" anyway, but enjoy stroking her nicely, gently caressing breasts but not groping them! I also try and give them some back massage while they are standing over me. Sometimes I get VERY favorable response to both my massage and touch.
Although I have no interest in them, blowjobs are sometimes available but it seemed usually not. It seems that in about half the places full service is available for about $150, other than at the very expensive places as I earlier mentioned where its $300 or more. Remember all the prices I mention are $CAN so its only about 67% in $US. This makes the prices quite attractive compared to in the U.S.
Most massage "therapists" were young attractive, many Asian. I enjoy Asian massage done on a futon on the floor more than on a table, where she gets on top of you with and does full body massage using her body. It certainly isn’t as sensual as Thai massage but still nice. Some of the Asian Shiatsu techniques were good for my tight back muscles but not as good as the deep muscle more Swedish massage I seek for serious therapeutic massage. But I enjoy getting all types of massage.
I do not get "special services" unless I really feel a good connection with a therapist and get good vibes that she enjoys good intimacy. I have some very low key ways of testing the waters by gentle touch I can do either in the face up or down position when being massaged. I never have gotten full service since for $150 my logic says I would really prefer a full hour with someone in a bed with lots of intimacy not just fast sex as part of massage. But sometimes I do a naked hj if I feel the woman is comfortable with my gentle touch at the same time.
Iris Relaxation Center
I was fooled and a bit disappointed by a Korean at Iris Relaxation Center, 1819 W 5th off Burrard. Her English was only slightly better than my Korean - which is zilch! She knows the important words like handjob and full service but that was about all I could understand. I did an almost nude (thought it would be nude) hj for $80 and she had offered full service for $150. She was very sensual in the massage, using her butt to massage my legs and back on top of me etc. She was young, slim, and attractive. BUT I was very disappointed when she did the hj sitting at my feet where I could hardly reach her to caress her like I enjoy. She was the exception to my usual experience that Asians tend to be very nicely intimate. Maybe she had been Canadized or something.
During my next massage experience the next day I was too cautions and afterwards regretted not trying "special services" from a very cute, young, slender Russian named Alexander at Margrita's 1348 Burrand. I had a hard time understanding her Russian English (I'm terrible understanding most accents). Her massage was the harder Russian type and was quite good. She had the warmest cutest face. When I had to make the decision of special services or not I was getting slightly mixed messages from her and remembering my Korean gal experience was cost conscious ($100 for nude hj, no full service available) and passed. However she was very nice about it and after the massage her helping me put my coat on, holding hands, her overall friendliness made me regret not doing more with her.
There has been some rather heated discussion on asp about the Den. One reviewer very much likes it and others think it is terrible. So since I like research I tried to check it out. BUT…question for anyone familiar with it in downtown Vancouver…
Where the hell is the "back door" (to enter) and "Parking in rear"?
I felt very dumb as I kept going around and around and around the block ... there is a narrow ally a few doors down but it looked like nothing but dumpsters. A few parking garages nearby were closed and no parking slots were open on the street. I simply couldn't find its rear. It is in a normal downtown city block and behind it are the buildings that face the opposite way to the next block as far as I could tell. If I could have found a parking spot I would have walked down the ally and searched some more.
I finally was able to read the "hours" sign partly covered by the "open" sign hanging in front and saw that it closed at midnight which was only a few minutes away so I gave up. I felt very dumb not being able to find the "parking in rear"!
I had some other nice massages from Canadians but declined extras since they didn't seem very intimate. I definitely would try more massage next time in Vancouver and enjoy meeting nice women via massage whether I accept special services or not. It was just so nice to have the extras available if I wanted them without the legal concerns of the provider as in the U.S.
Nude Lap Dances
In my nude/strip club reports on Phoenix and San Francisco I go into great detail on my lap dance intimacy techniques. I have zero interest in being teased by a nude dancer or stripper but have had some very pleasurable interactions with lap dancers from my massage and loving caressing touch while they are dancing. I love to tame them. I try and get them to stop gyrating their bottoms into my crouch but just be held and melt into my arms. My favorite sport is cuddling and gently stroking an attractive, slender woman's body. I have no interest in groping or fingering them. So when I heard from reviews about the nude lapping available for $40 at Marble Arch in their "special rooms" I had to check it out.
Legally lap dancing is legally questionable in Canada since the Canadian Supreme Court in 1997 ruled them "indecent performance" as defined by the Criminal Code and, therefore, illegal. It overturned a Toronto judge's 1994 ruling calling the practices were relatively "innocuous". In the case undercover police officers testified they witnessed strippers who sat on customers' laps and permitted men to fondle their breasts, buttocks and thighs, to kiss and lick their breasts and to perform oral sex on them.
In 1993, a Ontario Judge ruled that the wide array of sexual acts taking place in the dark confines of a strip club did not offend community standards. But on appeal an Ontario Appeals court judge said "lap dancing is dangerous, humiliating…It degrades and humiliates women and publicly portrays them in a servile and humiliating manner as sexual objects, with a loss of dignity." Actually to me just gawking at nude gyrating bodies as sex objects vs. any positive human interaction which is usually a part of lap dancing is degrading, not lap dancing.
It is uncertain whether the most recent Supreme Court ruling prevents naked dancers from merely sitting on a clothed customer's lap, as long as it does not go any further with overt sexual activity. It is uncertain to what extent police will enforce the law in different cities.
Toronto has a city law that prohibits physical contact between the dancer and customer. In September 1998, more than 200 police officers raided 19 Toronto strip clubs. 115 people were charged with prostitution-related offences. But it was more than for just lap dancing, five were caught having sex in booths and dancers were arrested for being in a bawdy house.
In B.C., lap dancing is not allowed in any establishment that serves alcohol but is in bars that don't. Again Vancouver has been quite lenient on enforcement of Federal sex laws other than where real crime is involved such as dealing drugs or child prostitution. Obviously we think this is the sensible use of police and community resources.
The Commercial Sex Information Service (CSIS) is an excellent source for Canadian sex related news articles and legal developments. Their news article URL is http://www.walnet.org/csis/news/topics.html. CSIS is a clearinghouse of information about laws, sexual health, commerce and culture as these topics relate to sex work. CSIS networks with the Sex Workers Alliance of Vancouver as well as other sex-worker groups in Canada and abroad.
Summer 1999 Update
As mentioned above the legal status of lap dancing has been in question since the Supreme Court case. As of mid summer 1999 there are no more good lap dances according to many Vancouver sources at any of the clubs. One source said they had reached an agreement with the Vancouver police to stop any touching lap dances so the police would not start enforcing the bawdy house rules and make arrests. Therefore ALL THE LAP DANCE REPORTS BELOW ARE NOW NOT AVAILABLE (sadly)
After a few minutes of sitting down with my coffee at Marble Arch 518 Richards, a friendly dancer approached me. No touch fantasy laps near the stage were $12 and private room nude laps with touch were $40. Of course I only wanted the nude laps with touch.
The dancer gets a key from the manager and we go up a narrow flight of stairs in the hotel portion of the club to a small private room. The "high tech " music is from a small radio/tape player. She says I can touch her all over but no penetration. I "tame" her quite quickly and she seems to be very much enjoying my massage and caress. She does mention I can lick her breasts and any part of her body I wish, but since I'm not a licker I passed. I was amazed at how long the session lasted…about 15 minutes! She was really nice. As I recall she was European, not Canadian. Also a big difference in Canada vs. the U.S. strip clubs is that no tipping was expected beyond the $40 dance fee. I suspect she keeps all the $40 to avoid the "living off the income" legal problem. Perhaps being done in a private hotel room upstairs from the strip club also had some legal benefit.
It turned out I must have been very lucky to have that dance opportunity. I stayed quite a while afterwards and didn't see any other dancers offering laps. Some were sitting at tables just talking with customers or dancing on stage. But none were circulating soliciting lap dances. My dancer went to a table and sat with a couple guys the rest of the time I was there. It didn't appear they were buying her "lady drinks" which is common in Asian bars or anything else to her benefit.
I came back here three other times and on two nights there were no dancers trying to get lap dances. One night it was after a hockey game and the place was packed. Lapping was more active and a tall attractive Canadian dancer got me upstairs. But it was mostly a gyrating tease and the typical gynecological exam (looking at her pussy) which I have no interest in. It lasted only about a third the time of the first nights experience which makes be think the European dancer's time was longer by her choice since she seemed to be enjoying my touch so much. I couldn't tame the Canadian and it was much more mechanical than intimate.
The Canadian dancer also told me that only two clubs in Vancouver do laps. No. 5 Orange was owned by the same person as Marble Arch and do the same nude laps but in a more open area upstairs at the club, not in small private rooms like at Marble Arch.
No. 5 Orange
I visited No. 5 Orange 205 Main Street on three different nights. Very few dancers were soliciting or doing laps. However over the course of three nights I did get two laps. The lap room had lots of chairs, a nice couch and could hold maybe 20 couples. The first time I lapped we were the only ones there and the second on "hockey night" there were 3 couples (customer/dancer). The dances here were not nearly as intimate. It seemed no breast touching was allowed and when in doubt I don't try.
At both clubs I was very surprised at the lack of demand or soliciting for laps which are so popular in the U.S. But in the U.S. they are almost never nude, and with expected tips often cost far more. Maybe since full service sex is so easy to get, most men don't care for just the lap dances. But many of the women were very attractive.
My last experience was interesting on "hockey night" when both clubs were very busy. But not many laps were occurring. I started to actually notice the stage dancing at No. 5 Orange, which is unusual for me since I have no interest in just being teased by a dancer. To me it's like her saying "See how sexy I am...ha ha you can't have me except in your fantasy." I am only interest in warm real interaction not fantasy of being teased no matter how sexy the nude dancer is on the stage.
HOWEVER, I was getting interested in how the dancing here was much more than just teasing. The choreography, athletic ability and "show" of the dancers was actually very good. One cute gal was in a Captains outfit doing a Love Boat routine. Another was very athletic doing naked hand walking across the stage and really using good muscle control sliding her nude body on the pole and doing a head stand etc. These were really good dancers dong more than just teasing and thrusting their pussy lips at men from the stage.
About the time I was going to leave and give up on another lap dance (for research sake) one of the very attractive, slim, cute, stage dancers finished and the DJ announced she would be available for private table or lap dances. It seemed that not all the performers mingled with customers and some of the mingling gals didn't stage dance. Since the dancer was very talented had nice muscle tone (I like massaging good muscle toned women) I stayed around.
She mingled around the bar for a long time. Finally she started around the club asking for private dances. But she was going the opposite way of me so she would have to go almost all the way around before she got to where I was. I didn't think I had a chance. She seemed very outgoing and friendly. Seemed to know many of the men and was sharing hugs and nice hand holding while greeting some. Wow, my type of women. She was approaching almost every table obviously offering dances. But gosh, no one was taking her up.
As she got about half way around to me I was seriously debating trying to reposition myself closer or approach her directly. But I decided to make a game out if it and see if she made it to me. I couldn't believe it. Everyone turned her down and she got to me.
Up we went to the large group lap room. The nice couch that I had before was taken so we did it on a chair. She did say periodically how great my massage was but I could not break out of massage mode into more intimate caressing touch like I usually do. She was moderately responsive but not nearly like many dancers I've had in Phoenix, Los Angeles or San Francisco.
She was quite friendly as we talked a bit at the end. She is French/Greek and came from either Montreal or Quebec I forget which. But then I made a big mistake. I mentioned to her I was noticing that there wasn't any tipping of the stage dancers, no asking for tips for laps and I only paid a $3 fee to get in. I mentioned how great this seemed for the customers but wondered how the dancers made out very well. Well…she was greatly offended by my question, said its their own business how they make money and walked off in a big huff. Gee, I'm sorry I didn't mean to offend her. I was just curious since it was so different than all the tipping in the clubs in the U.S.
My Best Massage Was At A Strip Club!
My best experience in receiving a massage happened at No. 5 Orange. On the second visit (no laps being done for anyone) there was a gal going around offering back and neck massages for $10. Gee, I'll try that! Sophia was really really great. Strong hands that could tell how tight my neck/back muscles were. Her massage with me sitting in a chair was the best I had in Vancouver. I asked her if she massaged anyplace else (no) or if she knew any good deep muscle massage people (no). We had a great chat. I told her I taught massage and I knew how good she was. I mentioned Esalen massage that I do and she seemed very interested. I even gave her a Esalen massage brochure I carry in my back pocket just in case someone is interested in what it is.
The next night I saw a massage gal at Marble Arch but she was doing more just light sensual neck/back massage and I did not try it.
On my last night at No 5 as I was leaving not seeing Sophia or any other massage gal I asked the front door gal about it. She said there is supposed to be a massage gal at both clubs every night but sometimes they don't show up. The massage at a strip club was a very nice idea.
While some street prostitution can be found scattered in most of Vancouver, just like in most any large U.S. city, in Vancouver there are 3 distinct types of street prostitution that mostly occurs in certain quite well defined areas. There is the Kiddy stroll with homeless kids mixed in with adults, the druggie strip and the high-class very expense downtown area.
Since the big political issue in Vancouver is child prostitution and huge drug problem I am going to be sensitive to the local community and not even tell you where those strips are. There are quite a few reports about how some of the best bargains for adult sex often take place also along the Kiddy Stroll but I feel more a responsibility not to encourage this. Further, car sex is a big issue which is clearly illegal since in public unless in a very secure private location (as one recent Canadian court case shows).
I did observe lots of action in the Kiddy stroll even in the rain late at night. I am not a good judge of how old they were, but none were real young. But I choose not to sample any of it even with older obviously adult women.
In Canada the age of consent is age 14. HOWEVER while not the same as statutory rape, having paid sex with someone under 18 is a separate criminal offensive with a penalty of up to 10 years in jail! It is worse if the child is under 12. There have been reports of children as young as 11 and 12 on the Kiddy stroll. For moral, ethical and legal reasons I strongly urge no sex with anyone under age 18 and choose not to even divulge the location.
I also discourage any car sex anywhere or even approaching street prostitutes other an in the high-class area where it seems less of a community issue where the police and providers seem to have a good working relationship (no pun intended). In the high-class downtown area it is done in a way that technically may comply with the communicating law and you legally have sex in private in a hotel, not on the street or in a car.
High Class Downtown Hookers
The high-class downtown hooker area seems highly concentrated and centered in the block around the Bull Dog Restaurant which is at Richards and Nelson. They work at the street corners and on Helmcken and Seymour, which surround the BullDog block. I assume the BullDog is happy being the center. It could be a good marketing attraction to eat while watching the sexy hookers strolling outside. There were less attractive women also, but many were stunners. In the summer the area may expand further. I was there on Christmas weekend in lots of rain!
My experience confirms a good review posted by "Blazing". He said, "Many of these girls are very hot - lots of 8's, 9's and 10's (yes 10's) gather in this area. However prices can add up in a hurry." He mentions going rates of $200-$300 and "For these prices, don't even expect the girl to take off her top (or panties) for that matter. I'm serious; if you have tons of money, then go for it - even then, you still might have a lousy time. The value is admittedly terrible in this area."
A very attractive provider told me that they have a "union" and all the hookers agree to standard minimum pricing. No provider regardless of age or beauty on the street in this area will undercut the other.
They also attempt to avoid breaking the communicating law designed to avoid street prostitution by not directly soliciting for any sex on the street and of course only having sex in a private hotel room, which is perfectly legal.
Here is their routine. I wasn't really thinking seriously of picking up a street girl but I saw a car stop, the girl obviously was giving her standard pitch to the driver who declined and drove off. I was very curious what her pitch was.
I then spotted a very attractive "knock-out blond" with a warm friendly, cute face and a body so great I tend to avoid them since it is so attractive! Often the most attractive women I find are the least intimate and I can understand the psychology why. But she was obviously cold in shorts and white boots with only a thin jacket in the rain and cold.
Just to be legally safe I wasn't going to break the solicitation laws but just ask "What do you usually say to men who stop?" It turned out I didn't have to say anything. As soon as I pulled up and opened the window she leaned over the snow bank and with a beautiful friendly smile said "Thank you so much for stopping it's really cold out, do you have a hotel nearby?" When I replied no, that my hotel was out in Burnaby she said something like "no problem I have one available." She told me her fee for company was $100 plus the hotel was $30. When I asked what "company" included she wisely (legally) replied that she couldn't discuss any sexual services until we are in a private hotel room.
She seemed so nice and I really did want to caress her beautiful body even if having sex would have been far too expensive. I realized she was telling me all she could legally. My logical cost conscious mind was telling me that gosh for $130 I could be assured of full service sex from an independent in a nice room and why would anyone pay that much just for company with no sex or perhaps not even body contact from a street worker?
But she was so nice and attractive. So for the sake of research off we went to her affiliated hotel. The hotel was in the drug strip but you parked in front and a "dude" was there to guard my car without needing to pay him. She was very open and friendly. She told me her real name, which was different from her street name (Kyrene). During the summer she worked at a very different and interesting occupation which she told me about but said she is concerned some of her customers in that very non-sex related field might find out about her prostitution work. So I won't mention her other occupation. But it was slightly connected with my massage interest but not with humans… and we had a good discussion.
The room was small but seemed clean. Once in it she was very open about her services and the "union" agreement of minimum rates to charge. The $100 gets her company for like 10 minutes and a fast handjob. Whether the union agreement was true or not (probably was) it’s a very good ploy to get the fees you want. These aren't dumb blondes but very astute business women! But for her to take any of her clothes off its another $100. To have sex is another $100 or $330 total. She of course says she often charges much more but since I'm so nice…yah sure…
Since I very much enjoy massaging and caressing beautiful bodies even without any sex, and doing my social research on the interesting reactions I sometimes get, I chose the extra $100 option to have her nude but without sex.
She was moderately responsive and kept saying that feels so good (and I think she meant it) but kept her legs tightly together both while laying on her back and front. She seemed to like my breast massage etc. She even asked if I could do more deep massage on her back and flipped over again.
After about 45 minutes which was far beyond the normal time she is expected to be in a room she got a cell phone call for her "guardian" checking on her to be sure she was OK. I like the support networks these gals have. She said all was well and even had me continue awhile longer after the call. She mentioned how she could enjoy it all night etc. We finally stopped and I took her back to the BullDog area. It actually was a fairly nice encounter, although I would not repeat it again, since I prefer working with incall independents at lessor fees and sometimes more intimacy.
She also told me they have a good relationships with the police. The police value the hookers as extra eyes who help them with real crime and the police don't harass the hookers. She also mentioned she has had sex with most of the police, but that's just part of the business and good police relations.
Saving the best for last this is my preferred way of meeting women. But it takes a lot more planning and arranging then most of the other ways. I had E-mailed some who had websites before I left and contacted others after I arrived. Many were out of town or unavailable due to the Christmas holiday. I tried to select some from different price ranges based on reviews of others. I had sessions with four, which I will review in more detail.
Even with incall services clearly not legal, violating the Federal bawdy house restrictions escorts in Vancouver seem to much prefer you come to them. I prefer it also since the price is lower than for outcall. Both the provider and customer benefits from the non-enforcement of bawdy house restrictions in Vancouver. The City also benefits from less pressure of more street prostitution by not forcing more providers onto the streets. Incall private services are safer for the provider and the customer. Outcall is more a risk to the provider having to deal with not always the most honest customers in his environment. Plus she has to charge more for her travel time.
The providers tend to have a fairly standard sexual routine. Some other reviewers have suggested it's almost to routine and mechanical. The sexy clothes, tease, undressing, handjob, blowjob and intercourse in either a half-hour or hour session. All my sessions were half-hour but all ran somewhat longer.
I was very upfront about suggesting a different routine and in 3 of the 4 cases the provider appreciated knowing what I liked and seemed to enjoy my somewhat different routine. Based on my earlier shared biases my choices should not be surprising. Forget the sexy clothes, prefer to get nude as soon as possible. Forget the handjob/blowjob. Instead I like to take that time to massage and caress the provider. Often with a responsive, intimate provider its more like girlfriend sex going from me massaging/caressing her, then I have a transition routine of cuddling etc that leads to intercourse. If she is responsive and naturally intimate, it usually works well and seems very natural.
I had corresponded by E-mail with Capri from Phoenix. Her website is at
which has lots of good pictures of her.
She is very warm, intimate, good conversationalist, nice apartment in downtown area, nice cat and is just becoming familiar with the Internet. $150 for ½ hr or $200 1 hour. She is from the Caribbean (forget which island) not Canadian! Ideal, enjoyable session. Capri was my first such experience in Vancouver so I was looking forward to similar sessions with other providers.
No website but has a very nice attitude, is cheerful, unrushed, and enthusiastic. Don't expect a supermodel, but her skills and personality very much outway the fact she is a little older and somewhat heaver than some providers. Lyn was very nice and I had an ideal session with her. I believe she originally was from the U.S. not Canada. Has ad in Buy and Sell. Nicole use to work with her but she got out of the business. $100 half hour $150 hour.
Has ad with picture in Buy and Sell. $100 half hour/ $150 hour. (540-8001) A reviewer in a public post said that she was an athletic bundle of energy, a tastefully tattooed brunette hardbody with a positive professional (not 'pro') attitude. She can provide you XXX movies on a big screen, but movies certainly weren't my interest. One reviewer mentioned that he would return again "perhaps with an oxygen tank". I was not sure what that meant, but now I think I know!
It was a very unusual session where my routine didn't work. She was VERY much in control, made it clear in a very nice way exactly what she liked, and didn't like. She said she was claustrophobic so didn't like to be held, have someone's hands on her neck, face etc. She didn't like my massage, which I quickly forgot about doing since her muscles were sore from working out so much. I think she is the first woman I've ever met that didn't like my touch.
BUT even though she was not at all intimate she was very good sexually and I really did like her friendly personality. She did all sorts of sex positions with me. Her sexy talk and all about how she enjoyed it was actually distracting for me since I assume its all part of the "performance". But there are certain physical reactions in orgasm that you can't easily fake. She described herself as a semi nymphomaniac. She had just returned from being with relatives in Eastern Canada and hadn't had sex for a week! Poor old Dave….where is that oxygen tank?
I didn't need an oxygen tank, but I think I realize what the other person may have meant! I fortunately could keep up. It was a very interesting session even without being at all intimate. She was Canadian! But her personality made up for lack of any intimacy.
Of all the websites of providers Laiya's www.laiya.com was the most interesting. She is a gorgeous, sexy, slim Filipino. She has 5 pages of picture galleries on her site. I'm sure she has scads of customers. I hear so many good stories about how wonderfully intimate and girlfriend like the women of the Philippines are. I hope to go to both the Philippines and Thailand as soon as I can arrange the time. The cost is so low other than airfare but the flight is 20 hours plus vs. Vancouver only 3 hours from Phoenix!
I E-mailed Laiya but had a very negative reaction to her very commercialized highly regimented routine discussed in her E-mail. I was also perhaps overly turned off by statements like "If you think you have what it takes to totally satisfy a women sexually and you have the stamina, endurance and creativity that it takes to satisfy my never ending sexual appetite then by all means call me please!"
Much of her 2 page E-mail is that way, geared to the macho stud that likes sexy talk and wants to be a big man and see if he can please her. Her sessions are highly organized with 15 minutes for the man on the go who just wants to take care of business for $75, 30 minutes for $125 with one release, 1hr for $250 and 2 hr $400 sessions. She has a strip tease setup with a stage, lighting and pole to tease men from etc. None of that so far has any interest to me.
She does say how she enjoys her intimate side in a personal apparently uncanned portion, but my reaction, perhaps unfairly is its more a sales pitch then any real intimacy interest and I decided to pass based on everything sounding just too commercial. With all the customers I can understand why she may have to have it so organized. I'd prefer someone less of a "pro" and more of a real person. All this may be totally wrong and she may have the most wonderfully intimate, sensitive inner soul. She is also in Richmond, which is a long way from where I was staying (but close to the airport).
In an interview with sex guru and former prostitute Annie Sprinkle at http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/16/annie.html, Annie has a vision for the future where:
"No one will ever go hungry for sex because there will be sex kitchens all over town serving sex instead of soup. Sex is a powerful healing tool which will be used regularly in hospitals and psychiatric clinics.
Sex workers will be highly respected for the important work they do and desire will be decriminalized. Betty Dodson will be able to realize her dream of having orgasms across America on TV. She'll raise enough money to end world hunger.
In the future, everybody will be so sexually satisfied, there'll be an end to violence, rape and war. We will establish contact with extra-terrestrials and they will be very sexy."
Canada as well as most countries in the world other than the U.S. have realized the benefits to at least some extend of sexual freedom to obtain sexual fulfillment from sexworkers. There are still too many legal restrictions that really serve no purpose in Canada, but at least it’s a far better situation than we have in the States…where Freedom rings in some areas…but not in sexuality.
I hope educating people both in the U.S. and Canada of the positive human interactions that can be a part of sexwork might help some folks not think of it as just something dirty, immoral and so wrong it needs to have government controlling our sexual freedoms. It is the well organized religious right Christian groups that at least in the U.S. are the biggest enemy of positive sexuality and sexual freedom.
I am especially interested in reaching Christians that are at least open minded enough to research the issues. This is what I did many years ago, setting out to confirm the repressive traditions against the liberals like I now am. But the facts clearly show that biblically the sexual repression that is so deeply a part of Christian tradition, is simply a lie and is totally unsupported by the biblical texts, as understood by the culture in which they were written. I've been researching that issue for almost 20 years and part of my motivation is to help Christians overcome the lies of tradition and see how positive sexuality and freedom in sexual options is much more in tune with Christ's teaching than the repressive traditions.
To that end, I have a huge biblical section both at www.sexwork.com and www.libchrist.com . One article of particular relevance is Christian Prostitution Is Not A Biblical Conflict , which is at : http://www.sexwork.com/coalition/christian.html If you think it can be helpful to anyone please share it with him or her or any of our other biblical, intimacy or positive sexuality articles.
Last of all. If you have made it to the end here, you know a great deal about my intimacy interests. If you know of any providers in Vancouver or Victoria that might have similar interests please let me know all you can tell me about them. I am not soliciting or procuring any illegal services, simply interested in sharing ideas with like minded folks.
Or, even better perhaps share this report with some providers that might be like minded and might have an interested in meeting old Dave not just needing a customer but liking some of my intimacy ideas!
I certainly envy the sexual freedoms you have in Canada, especially regarding the legality of outcall sexworkers. There are many problems and your laws are far too restrictive but it is a lot better than in the U.S. where any sexwork is simply illegal and lives are ruined when the only crime is sharing sexual pleasure with other adults.