TBD Busted - Big Page of Chronological Updates
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3078718/
There is another site with MUCH more info and court documents. Some of
it is free but they also want to charge a fee to see some of the documents.
For research beyond what I show below, See "Site Contents" menu after agreement
page at http://www.operationfleacollar.info
TBD Updates - All articles shared with full credit and no commercial purpose under the fair use educational provisions of the U.S. Copyright Law and International treaties.
TBD WINS - Will he continue his ugly, arrogant dishonest ways - a disgrace to the industry? Probably Yes.
May 2004 Update Cops seem to be using TBD for stings all over the U.S., not just as they have always done in Phoenix
A Provider E-mails me about TBD after exposeing the cop stings on TER
The same thing is happening on Bigdoggie.net, but no one is saying anything.
Ladies have been busted now working with LE, check out the ones with the 877
or 800 numbers. LE is answering their phone. This is such a crock of shit.
How can this happen on TBD and no ne say anything. But, on TER all hell breaks
loose. Ask me I will tell you all. TBD is working with LE as well.
TBD Case Closed at least for now
St. Petersburg Times 1/11/03
Ruling hurts Web sex case
By CHRISTOPHER GOFFARD
TAMPA -- Crippling a much-hyped case that took the Hillsborough Sheriff's
Office two years to build, a judge on Friday threw out charges against the
owners of a Web site accused of promoting prostitution. Hillsborough Circuit
Judge Debra Behnke said the statewide prosecutor's office failed to meet the
legal deadline to bring Charles S. Kelly and Steve Lipson to trial on felony
charges of conspiracy to commit racketeering in the bigdoggie.net case. The
judge also threw out racketeering charges against four female "escorts" linked
to the Web site.
The delays that doomed those cases stemmed largely from the state's effort
to conceal the identities of six witnesses, some of them married, well-known
figures in Tampa Bay business and political communities who used the Web site.
While eight defendants still face charges ranging from racketeering to prostitution,
Friday's ruling left the state's two biggest targets, Kelly of Hunter's Green,
and Lipson of Boca Raton, off the hook. The ruling also scuttled the case
against xxxxxx whom prosecutors call a ringleader in a prostitution
operation linked to the site. (12/05 note I have deleted the name at
her request, all charges were exponged)
"We will file an appeal, and hopefully the appeal will go our way," said Assistant
Statewide Prosecutor Christopher Brown.
Under the law, felony defendants have a right to trial within 175 days of
their arrest. The cases that were dismissed Friday involved defendants who
were arrested last June. The cases were scheduled to go to trial in December,
but Judge Behnke postponed them on the grounds that prosecutors had not fully
complied with her order to reveal evidence to the defense. The identity of
the confidential informers was the sticking point. In seeking to keep their
names secret, prosecutors said some had received threats. One of the informers
was Monte Belote, 43, a candidate for Tampa City Council who dropped out of
the race when his involvement with bigdoggie.net was revealed.
Defense attorney Luke Lirot said the blame for the case's unraveling lay with
the Hillsborough Sheriff's Office. "I think law enforcement created this obstacle
for the statewide prosecutor's office," Lirot said. "I think law enforcement
promised informants confidentiality that they didn't have the ability to carry
out." Lirot said the Web site, where male clients called "hobbyists" traded
stories of their adventures with hired escorts, dealt in constitutionally
protected speech. Even if the contact between clients and escorts is illegal,
he said, talking about it is not. "It would be like saying, 'I smoked 5 pounds
of killer Colombian weed,' " Lirot said. "It's illegal to possess it, but
what you say is protected speech."
xxxxxx , an escort against whom charges were dropped, said she provided a
much-needed service to lonely men but did not sell sex. "An escort sells time
for money," said xxxxxx, 38. "Do you know how many lonely guys there are in
the world? Guys that are divorced, widowed, single, who want companionship
with a beautiful woman?" xxxxxx said she charged $1,000 to $1,500 to
accompany a man for an evening. Men greet her with flowers and candies, she
said, and show her elegant evenings. "I've been to the David Copperfield show,"
she said. "I've been to the Dali Museum for their annual dinner twice. I'm
not a prostitute. I have never had sex for money. I go out with gentlemen.
I am wined and dined."
Ed Suarez, her defense lawyer, said authorities seemed to target female escorts
while giving male clients a free pass, even attempting to conceal their names.
Pointing to the Sheriff's Office announcement last summer of arrests in the
case, Suarez said, "If you're going to have a press conference and stand on
your high horse, you don't cover up for these guys." With the exception of
the Web site owners, "How come not a single man was prosecuted?" Suarez asked.
"It was a sexist decision."
Defense attorney J. Kevin Hayslett, who represented one of the escorts cleared
Friday, said authorities were guilty of catastrophic bungling.
"In a case of this magnitude, you better have your ducks in a row before you
make an arrest," he said. The Sheriff's Office, which dubbed its two-year
investigation Operation Flea Collar, declined to comment on the ruling.
--------------------------------
TBD Won, Not by a Trial but case tossed out !!!
Deadline Kills State Internet Sex Case
Dec 17, 2002
TAMPA - Protecting the identity of men who used an Internet site to find prostitutes
cost prosecutors their case Monday. And one of the men they were trying to
protect is Monte Belote, who is running for Tampa City Council.
Belote agreed to be a confidential informant and tell Hillsborough County
sheriff's deputies everything he knew about BigDoggie.net, including the prostitutes
he had sex with and how the Web site was created, according to records made
public Monday. But he wanted his name kept secret.
In exchange for information about escorts and meetings held to set up the
Web site, Statewide Prosecutor Chris Brown agreed not to prosecute Belote
for paying women for sex, records show. Sheriff's Cpl. Kirk Bowling, the vice
detective who oversaw the BigDoggie.net case, told Belote he would protect
his name by making him a confidential informant, Bowling said. On Monday,
Hillsborough Circuit Judge Debra Behnke said not providing all information
in a timely manner hampered defense attorneys. She effectively dismissed the
case by delaying the trial until next month, past the legal time limit to
try it.
In June, the Statewide Prosecutor's Office brought racketeering charges against
16 defendants. Most were escorts accused of being prostitutes. The site's
owner, Charles Kelly, also was charged. For months, Bowling has said in newspaper
interviews that there were no politicians, athletes or public figures among
the confidential informants who provided information about the Web site. Initially,
Bowling tried to keep the names of his witnesses secret, worried, he said,
that johns would not testify if their names became public. Behnke ruled that
all witnesses' names should be revealed. But Bowling delayed naming witnesses
he deemed confidential informants.
On Monday, Bowling said he didn't know anything about Belote's political past
or ambitions. Belote was chairman of the Hillsborough County Democratic Party
for 10 months in 1999. He also was executive director of the Florida Consumer
Action Network from 1990 to 1998. In 2000, he ran unsuccessfully for the District
47 Florida House seat, which includes north Tampa and parts of Pinellas County.
He is running against Tampa City Councilman Shawn Harrison, who holds the
District 7 seat. Belote is married and has a 9-year-old son.
He told Brown and Bowling he has been having sex with prostitutes he met through
the Internet since 1998, including escorts who advertised on BigDoggie.net.
When asked by Bowling who and how many, Belote said he could not remember
exactly, but said he paid women between $250 and $300 for sex. Reached by
cellular telephone Monday night, Belote said he was at a family function and
had no comment.
Five bit players in the BigDoggie.net racketeering case have charges pending
because the time limit has not been reached for their right to a speedy trial
or because they agreed to testify for the prosecution. But Brown said he will
consider dropping the charges against them since the major players, including
the site's owner and eight other defendants, won't go on trial. Brown said
he also might appeal Behnke's ruling.
Source: http://tampatrib.com/floridametronews/MGAJVLWET9D.html
12/9/02 TBD Trial Update
Nothing much was accomplished 12/9 the Trial date is still set for Dec 16th.
The State Wide Prosecutor made a motion to extend speedy trial 30 to 60 days
but it was denied. The defense motions to dismiss the case on 1st amendment
grounds, duplicity and speedy trial have been denied by the Judge
Anna Guinn (a/k/a "Anna of Tampa", "Hot Anna") was at the TBD hearing on Monday
the 9th. She arrived in handcuffs and orange. In addition to the TBD charges
of Conspiracy to Racketeer (F-1) and Committing Prostitution (M-2) she was
later arrested on two drug charges
===============================================
TBD Trial issues - Dave's notes and others comments
While most honest folks despised TBD personally, the legal issue in the trial
are of concern to every provider and client. Although on the one hand he went
so far and beyond just the board and did so many questionable, dishonest things
for his own ego and greed, even if convicted and the Feds take over and shut
down the TBD board under RICO, it should have no bearing on other boards or
even less of a concern for private E-mail lists.
On the other hand again... while I'd love to see TBD (but not the girls) in
jail for a long time, a successful defense would be a legal blow to the anti-sex
morality police if they can't even win a case against TBD. I am more in favor
of a legal blow to the morality police than having TBD rot in jail! If TBD
wins, the IRS may still go after him, even criminally if he hid his income
as some have suggested.
Whatever the result of the current trail, it will probably be appealed so
the final outcome will now be known for years. If the State or Feds win, hopefully
only TBD would be found guilty since appeals may simply be unaffordable by
the escorts - the price of our legal system is very high.
I understand TBD's attorney, Luke Lirot, is very good and has successfully
defended other sex related cases for strip clubs etc.
From a public Tampa board someone asked how the TBD bust got started resulted
in some good comments:
Personally, I believe LE went after TBD simply as a result of the Private
Pets bust, nothing more. Those folks offered up info that put the pooch pound
in the spotlight. Discretion wasn't even an afterthought on TBD and that made
LE's job a lot easier. When push came to shove, the "regular" hobbyists gave
up all their provider friends to save their own hides. Vice versa with the
ladies. It reached a point where it was all about self-preservation, and all
of those "true friendships" that were always being touted in the TBD community
went right out the window.
From the conspiracy angle, even before the arrests it seemed that TBD conspired
to protect his favorite providers (and well known for giving top listings
for money or sex). Just my opinion. In the end though, only what the jury
thinks will matter.
-------
(what was meant by) the conspiracy angle of the Rico based charges - such
as "conspiracy to commit prostitution" - as in a FEDERAL offense (Dave notes
actually that is a state charge, but the Feds are involved under the RICO
charges of criminal enterprise. There is no Federal prostittuion law, other
than the Mann Act for importing, forcing into and for children). These (RICO)
are the charges that resulted in the very much exagerrated legal fees for
all the ladies (as compared to the much lower cost to defend a misdemeanor
prostitution charge).
---------
I read some stuff on escort-watch that looks at the conspiracy theory from
another angle. In the end, it appears to me that they were a bunch of people,
both men and women, having a lot of fun, oblivious of any intent to perpetuate
a criminal organization.
--------
From the hobbyists perspective except for that one caught up in OFC who was,
according to Exhibit A, helping Hot Anna further her biz by setting her up
with a place, a laptop, etc., most of the others were just trying to have
a good time. (Unless he provided some damn good info to take down the doggie,
I'm at a loss as to why that particular hobbyist didn't face some serious
charges along with the others). Other than that, I really don't see any conspriatorial
actions on the parts of the other hobbyists. They just wanted to have some
fun.
However, from the ladies' perspective, it was definitely all about furthering
their businesses, which leaves a lot of room for conspiracies to transpire.
For instance, the referral practice that the ladies used. They were working
together to stay out of danger, as well as out of LE's grasp. And one look
at some of the indiscreet websites, along with their graphic reviews, made
it crystal clear that they were peddling sex.
(Dave notes this also reminds me of TER where reviews are refused if not juicy
enough and therefore often false. But the reviews themselves are protected
free speech that is clear, and I am not aware of any direct criminal activity
outside the protected by free speech board by owners of TER, although there
have been rumors, and one provider asked me if I knew who owned TER since
someone claimed to be the owner seeking sex for a good review. But I have
my doubts and suspect it may have just been someone falsely claiming to be
owner of TER).
Lastly, TBD was foolish to put acronyms with graphic sexual definitions on
his site. It kind of made the use of the acronyms useless in the first place.
By doing that, the mutt was flat out verifying that the reviews were all about
sexual acts being committed by the providers. Then he posted the very incriminating
info about what one should do when arrested. He very clearly spelled out that
he knew for a fact that his boards were supporting the furtherance of illegal
acts.
-----------
"Hey man, it was business."
A lot of hobbyists relied on TBD to be an honest, unbiased resource for finding
the right provider. By protecting his fav's and not allowing the bad, as well
as the good, to be disclosed about them he did a great disservice to potential
clients who were using his boards. This was especially true after he started
the member services and guys were actually paying for access to certain levels
of that info. If nothing else, he was committing wire fraud with his deceit.
Monday December 2nd 2002- Judge Behnke granted the defenses' motion for
continuance charged to the state. Several defendants refused to waive
their right to a speedy trial. The fourteen pending motions are scheduled
to be heard Monday, December 9th at 1:30 PM. Trial date re-set for Monday,
December 16th at 8:30 AM.
Kelly and Anna are listed in Exhibit A but are still co defendents with the
others. No deals yet. No word of deals for Lacey and Tiff either.
Comment from a Tampa Board: TBD's poor image...Both self-inflicted and years of verbally abusing others. I particularily love your "karma-check"...I often quote "what goes around, comes around..." Now, TBD's "checks" have a way of coming back "NSF"...
On Tuesday, November 26th, the Honorable judge Debra Behnke denied the motion to dismiss or continue and stated trial is set for Monday. Monday, December 2, 2002, 8:30am Room 52A, 5th Floor, Hillsborough County Courthouse, 801 E. Twiggs, Tampa Of the ten arrested female defendants, eight will stand trial. Lacy and Tiffany have negotiated plea bargains. (Anna and Kelly were never arrested and were listed in Exhibit A as cooperating).
11/3/02 TBD Trial Update From Court Documents
Order To Set Trial Date Highlights
"3) The charges against the above-named defendants involve prostitution and
the Internet Web site www.Bigdoggie.net, which promotes prostitution through
the Internet.
4) Since June 18, 2002, the defendants have collectively filed numerous motions
regarding multiple issues in this case. These motions have been filed in lieu
of actively participating in this case, through, for example, engaging in
discovery or entering a plea. The net effect of these motions has been to
greatly delay the progress of the case.
5) In addition, the defendants collectively refused to enter a plea until
September 11, 2002, when all defendants were arraigned, despite objection,
by this Honorable Court.
6) The next case management date is currently set for October 23, 2002.
7) Pursuant to Fla. R. Crim. P. 3.191, every person charged with a felony
shall be brought to trial within 175 days. For those defendants arrested on
June 18, 2002, this is on or about December 10, 2002.
8) Due to the historical pace of this case, at the pretrial currently scheduled
for October 23, 2002, a trial date should be set within the speedy trial period,
or all defendants should be required to enter waivers of a speedy trial.
WHEREFORE, the State of Florida, by and through the undersigned Assistant
Statewide Prosecutor, hereby requests that at the case management date currently
scheduled for October 23, 2002, this Honorable Court issue an Order setting
the case for trail prior to December 10, 2002, or require all defendants enter
a waiver of speedy trial, together will such other further relief as the Court
deems appropriate and just.
Dated this 20th Day of September 2002"
Dave notes, the TBD side claims the delays are due to the prosecutor that
was not turning over evidence in the discovery process and that only a few
of the defendants did not enter a plea until recently.
===============================================
11/3/02 TBD new "First Amendment" Board comments from a Tampa Board
This new board is just something else the dog can add to his list of bad moves
in this case. If the pooch site is nothing more than a free speech forum,
like the dog's attorney keeps insisting, then why the hell was a separate
1st Amendment Board even necessary??? That idiotic creation has done nothing
but confirm Prosecutor Brown's contention that the rest of the board is NOT
used for free speech.
Just when you think the dog can't get any stupider, he does something like
this. You'd think that his attorney would have been able to see the disparity
of creating that "1st Amendment" board and how it would illuminate the fact
that its usage differs from the rest of the site. Wow... and to think this
guy gets paid for giving out that kind of bad advice???? If my liberty was
on the line, I'd be shopping around for better representation!
Whatever the reason for the 1st Amendment messageboard, I suspect it's too
little, too late. They seem to be getting desperate now
Others say:
But this is NOT about free speech. The charges in Exhibit A are quite clear.
The law is not after ••• because of the board but rather, how the board was
used by his cronies and himself.
This whole 1st Amendment ploy is just an attempt to divert the focus of the
investigtion away from the CRIMINAL charges that were filed and to try to
drum up pity for poor old ••• and his associates.
--
Dave notes and all of us that have been banned from posting are also banned
from the First Amendment board. Like zillions of people I never violated any
board rule but was banned by TBD's wild dreams according to his ranting E-mail
to me that I was going to make sexworktoronto.com commercial. His silly E-mail
with that off the wall excuse to ban me is in my big TBD report on sexwork.com.
I did not had my exposure of TBD on sexwork.com until his rant and silly reason
for banning me.
===============================================
11/1/02 From Dave'e E-mail: An experienced lawyer says:
A TBD First Amendment Board seems contradictory
How posting on TBD is a great risk now
Dave notes: In what seems just silly, after the attack of LE proving the TBD
board has nothing to do with Free Speech, since people and posts are censored,
TBD now started a new First Amendment Board which is what this E-mail is about
as well as warning about continuing to participate on TBD boards. This E-mail
is from a very experienced lawyer who has tried 50 federal cases and done
two on the First Amendment in the Supreme Court.
Many Americans aspire to uphold the First Amendment in their private and corporate
affairs. Unfortunately, TBD does not seem to be among them. The First Amendment
is a lofty ideal of American culture, a freedom, a liberty, a goal.
The first act of the new TBD First Amendment board, however, was to censor
an intelligent inquiring post by an individual who has handled pro First Amendment
cases in the US Supreme Court.
You may not know this but TBD systematically has banned his critics from the
boards for over two years, dozens of individuals. That mode of hypocrisy will
probably be used as evidence against TBD at his trial. It tends to show coverup
intent and deception, i e, criminal intent. As Exhibit A says, TBD Charles
Kelly has a criminal history of fraud, perhaps a lifetime of misleading, manipulation,
and coverup. Who knows how many accusations, charges, arrests, and earlier
criminal acts. TBD and his lawyers certainly will not tell the truth about
that.
Moderators have probably been misled worst of all and have much do lose because
they can be brought into criminal cases as active co-conspirators.
Advertisers are in jeopardy as well, because ads that lead to illegal acts
in the bulk of instances have no First Amendment protection. The Florida authorities
tell everyone that they monitor the TBD boards for evidence now.
A First Amendment Board by TBD is an oxymoron, a ruse, a farce. It fools no
one with half a brain. A word to the wise.
I find it ironic that one of the first acts of the new board was to continue
the censorship of critics of TBD. How many posts have been blocked in these
first hours? You realize that TBD's censorship activities can be used as evidence
of coverup and wrongful intent, hypocrisy. A jury will be disgusted by that.
Odds among intelligent informed professional observers are that TBD will spend
15 years behind bars, if he lasts that long.
He's finished and the Board is simply a business asset that can be forfeited
to the State the same as a car or bank account. The First amendment has next
to nothing to do with the case. Participation in prostitution is not speech.
$80,000 a month with much laundered to Bermuda is not speech. Lies to a bank
to get a Mercedes are not speech. Swapping ads for sex is not speech. Swapping
ads for Top 100 ratings is criminal fraud, not speech. Wake up!
TBD is repugnant to any judge and jury. A bonobo lawyer could get a conviction
blindfolded. Florida authorities monitor the Board fully and are aware of
the dozens of people banned for criticizing TBD. It also amazes me that a
perfectly intelligent person would be a Moderator or Advertiser now, knowing
that you could be named as a co-conspirator to criminal racketeering any day.
An open legal board could be helpful to you personally because 99% of what
has appeared on TBD about the State v Kelly case has been poorly informed,
and much of it just plain stupid.
Factual critical analysis is banned in favor of idiotic sucking up and sycophants
such as XDog and ILSW who have no legal skills or analytical training at all.
One essential question to ask is about the prior criminal history of fraud
by Kelly mentioned in Exhibit A. How pervasive is it? Is he lying to you and
manipulating the friends of TBD? Most objective observers consider TBD an
essentially dishonest and manipulative person, even moreso after the indictment.
TBD started a useful enterprise, then became its worse enemy with his own
multiple shortcomings. Now he's bringing a lot of people down with him. TBD
is lying to everyone and trying to silence critics. He only makes more enemies
that way, and most are much smarter than he is.
How dumb is it to locate to Bible Belt Tampa?
To have servers in Florida so they can be seized?
To swap ads for sex?
To swap ratings for sex?
To do your banking in Tampa where accounts can be frozen?
To be incorporated in Florida instead of offshore?
Let me ask you this. Could TBD have operated in any way that is dumber than
he did?
At the rate things are going downhill, TBD will soon have one or two federal
cases also, and will wind up losing everything and getting 25 years. The $$
in Bermuda will come out too because Bermuda has treaties with the US. Bad
choice of offshore haven. Retarded by fifteen years. Many bad choices.
Is TBD a double agent trying to destroy the hobby? The evidence all points
in that direction. Being a moderator or supporting TBD is either incredibly
stupid, delusional, or the result of knowing next to nothing about the facts.
I've tried 50 federal cases and done two on the First Amendment in the Supreme
Court. There is no plausible free speech issue here. It is smoke and mirrors.
TBD is sunk, finished. Don't let him take you with him. Those orange jumpsuits
and prison roommates named Bubba and Tyron are a terrible way to end a life.
Dave notes, I asked writer for permission to use his E-mail publicly. His
reply:
You are welcome to use it without limits or attribution. Good to hear from
you. Of course I got a nasty note from Kelly using my real name, and implying
indirectly that he knows bad things about me. The sooner he's locked up for
good the better. I've always thought that prostitution should be legal, but
it really bothers me that Kelly traded sex for ratings & ads. Also, his arrogance
and rudeness made enemies everywhere. I suspect that he and his case have
set back a good cause many decades.
Bigdoggie feels big bite from the law
St. Petersburg Times
October 24, 2002
Detectives call www.bigdoggie.net a front for prostitution. Defense attorneys
say the online escort service qualifies as protected speech under the First
Amendment. But authorities say the self-avowed champion of free speech is
censoring the news.
Law enforcement officials who monitor the Web site say they've tried repeatedly
to post a recent piece of news on the chat board -- namely, that Hillsborough
Circuit Judge Debra Behnke has ruled that a criminal case against bigdoggie
owners and alleged customers can proceed. "Not only is it deleted, but the
posting name is banned," said Christopher Brown, the prosecutor handling the
case. "For a Web site that claims to be a First Amendment place, it's interesting
to me they won't allow public-record stuff on there that's detrimental to
their case." "I think this may come back to bite them," Brown said. "And I
may be the biter."
Frank de la Grana, defense attorney for bigdoggie owner Charles Kelly, said
he knows the news of Behnke's ruling was posted on the site but wasn't sure
if it had been removed. He said the First Amendment isn't the issue, since
it's a private Web site. "Whoever is the monitor of the Web site has the choice
of keeping it on or taking it off," de la Grana said.
Comment on a Tampa Board which Dave agrees with:
I also believe that when a BUSINESS promotes itself as a bastion of 1st Amendment
freedoms, accepts money for advertising, membership and attorney fees under
the banner of "protect the 1st Amendment" and does not practice the very thing
it preaches it is not only hypocritical, it is fraudulent.
Dave adds, and its been long known that anyone TBD doesn't like is banned
even if no violation of the posted rules. Hardly free speech when only the
TBD glee club is allowed vs others that are more honest and seek integrity
in the industry vs TBD's persona agenda and paranoia.
From Oct 6 Tampa Tribune:
On Monday, state prosecutor Chris Brown will seek another judge's order to
shut down the Web site, claiming its continued operation is endangering the
community. He says he wants the site's owner, Charles S. Kelly of Tampa, held
in contempt of court and his $65,000 bail revoked for ignoring Holder's order.
Free Speech Argument
Luke Lirot, a Tampa First Amendment lawyer representing Kelly's business partner,
Steven E. Lipson, says the Web site is constitutionally protected. Lipson
was also charged. ``Web sites tell how to make bombs. Web sites tell how to
make methamphetamine,'' Lirot said. ``That's the whole nature of the First
Amendment. It's the exchange of information.'' Lirot compared bigdoggie.net
to High Times magazine. The publication features stories about how to grow
marijuana, opinions about legalizing pot and reviews about the quality of
marijuana from different countries and states. All of those activities are
protected free speech, even though marijuana is illegal, Lirot said.
Members of bigdoggie.net discuss legalizing prostitution, chat about the sexual
likes and dislikes of certain people, and post rants against vice stings,
saying police should focus their efforts on terrorism, not arresting hookers.
``You can speak about those issues without fear of reprisal,'' Lirot said.
Lirot said Holder's order to shut down the Web site was invalid because the
government cannot exercise prior restraint of free speech in a one-sided hearing
dealing with arrest warrants and conditions of bail. That's the argument he
plans to tell Behnke.
Brown says some activities on bigdoggie.net are protected by the First Amendment,
such as discussions about legalizing prostitution. But the majority of chats
on the site are about johns setting up meetings with hookers, he said. ``I
don't think there's any First Amendment protection of putting criminals together
to commit a crime,'' Brown said.
The lead detective on the case, Cpl. Kirk Bowling, of the Hillsborough County
Sheriff's Office's Organized Crime Bureau, said he believes High Times magazine
is the epitome of First Amendment speech, which he supports. ``High Times
doesn't sell'' marijuana, Bowling said. ``High Times doesn't put pot growers
in contact with pot buyers.''
Income And Expenses Tracked
Bowling said Kelly had two goals when he set up bigdoggie.net in September
1999: To make money and make it easier for prostitutes and customers to get
together without fear of arrest. Bowling interviewed one alleged prostitute
from the site, Angela Guinn, who told him Kelly set up the Web site to protect
escorts from ``weirdos and law enforcement,'' court records state. Guinn is
one of Kelly's co-defendants. Bowling went to great lengths to prove Kelly's
involvement with prostitutes. In court records, he said Kelly bragged about
paying for prostitutes five or six times a week. Bowling said Kelly gave escorts
ads on his Web site in exchange for sex.
Bowling also said Kelly took in $30,000 to $80,000 a month from his Web site,
and spent nearly that amount by the end of each month. Much of the money paid
for operating the site, but some went to escorts and strippers, Bowling said.
According to court records, Bowling obtained bank records showing Kelly made
ATM withdrawals at the Ybor Strip and Mons Venus nude bars. Bowling said he
found no evidence Kelly saved any significant amount of money from operating
bigdoggie.net.
Whether Brown will be successful in shutting down the Web site is hard to
predict. At a previous hearing, Behnke seemed unimpressed that the Web site
was still operating despite Holder's order. Neither Brown nor Lirot could
provide previous court cases that dealt with shutting down a Web site accused
of facilitating prostitution. Lirot said much of his First Amendment argument
will center on the Cannabis Action Network's successful lawsuit against Gainesville.
In 1995, the city denied the group a permit to hold a rally in Gainesville.
But a U.S. District Court judge in the northern district of Florida ruled
the city's actions unconstitutional.
Brown said shutting down bigdoggie.net is different. The participants have
already broken the law, he said, so shutting down the Web site would not be
violating the First Amendment by prior restraint.
Source: http://www.tampatrib.com/FloridaMetro/MGAMHPQAY6D.html
October 8, 2002
Prosecutors Told To ID Informants In Sex Sting
TAMPA - An alleged prostitution Web site may stay in business, but prosecutors
must reveal the names of johns who cooperated with investigators, a judge
ruled Monday. Hillsborough Circuit Judge Debra Behnke's decision was a victory
for operators of www.bigdoggie.net targeted by a Hillsborough County Sheriff's
Office sting called Operation Flea Collar. In June, authorities arrested two
men and twelve women on conspiracy, racketeering and prostitution charges
stemming from the Web site.
Much of the state's case is based on men who used the Web site to meet escorts
and have sex with them, deputies said. The men were arrested when they went
to meet a new escort named Lia Nice, who really was a balding vice officer
named Cpl. Kirk Bowling. Some of the men cooperated, naming escorts in the
Tampa area who advertised on the Internet site and traded sex for cash, Bowling
said. Some escorts also cooperated. Bowling sought to keep the johns anonymous,
citing e- mails they had collected from users of bigdoggie.net. The e- mails
warned the johns to keep quiet, Bowling said. ``Local escorts will have a
field day with helping your wife collect a large divorce settlement,'' one
e-mail states. Statewide prosecutor Chris Brown said there were no politicians,
no star athletes and no celebrities on the list of johns. Though no overt
violence was threatened, he said he had a duty to protect his witnesses from
potential violence; however, he said he would provide the witnesses' names
to defense attorneys so they could prepare for the johns' testimony and cross-examine
them.
Gregg Thomas, an attorney representing The Tampa Tribune, asked Behnke to
keep the records public. Protecting the privacy of men who illegally had sex
with a prostitute is not the state's job, he said. ``The commission of prostitution
takes two people,'' Thomas said. Behnke told Brown he must disclose the johns'
names.
Brown also sought to have the Web site's owner, Charles Kelly, jailed for
keeping the site running despite Hillsborough Circuit Judge Gregory Holder's
order to shut it down. Holder issued the order when he signed search and arrest
warrants for the case. Frank De La Grana, Kelly's attorney, argued that Holder's
order was invalid because only prosecutors were allowed to present evidence
to Holder before the judge ordered the Web site shut down. De La Grana also
said bigdoggie.net is protected by the First Amendment.
Behnke didn't rule whether bigdoggie.net is protected by the First Amendment,
but she did say Holder's order was improper. She also denied Brown's motion
to jail Kelly. Because of her order, the Web site may continue to operate.
It has customers in all 50 states and some foreign countries.
Brown took the losses well. ``We're not through,'' he said as he walked out
of court with Bowling at his side. ``We certainly want the Web site shut down.''
Brown conceded some of the postings and e-mails on bigdoggie.net are constitutionally
protected. But the majority, he claims, are e-mails to connect men with prostitutes.
He said he plans to bring the issue before Behnke again.
This story can be found at: http://news.tbo.com/news/MGAFVI2817D.html
Dave comments: To bad none of the girls are related to Florida Governor Bush!
Noelle Bush's lawyers request closed hearings
October 8, 2002
ORLANDO, Florida (AP) -- Noelle Bush's attorneys have asked a judge to bar
the public from court hearings on their client's drug treatment, saying media
attention violates her right to privacy, according to court records.
Peter Antonacci, one of three lawyers representing Gov. Jeb Bush's only daughter,
cited a judge's ruling this week that drug treatment workers do not have to
testify about a piece of crack cocaine allegedly found in her shoe.
Full story at http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/10/06/jebbush.daughter.ap/
Or the statement from the drug rehab on the 911 tape released to the public:
"[S]he does this all the time and she gets out of it because she's the governor's
daughter. But we're sick of it here 'cause we have to do what's right, but
she gets treated like some kind of princess. And everybody's tired of it,
you know. We're just trying to get our lives together, and this girl's bringing
drugs on property."
Full police transcript at http://www.thememoryhole.com/drugs/noelle-call.htm
10/4/02 ** Vice squads troll online alleyways **
As prostitutes, masquerading as "escorts," move from Main Street to Cyberville,
the vice squad naturally follows, but its not always an easy chase. By Brock
N. Meeks.
Web escort services, sites that advertise prostitution, even Web personals
are scrutinized and pursued
Oct. 3 — In July, Florida officials arrested the operators of an international
Web site that brazenly advertised the “escort services” of sex workers across
the U.S. and six other countries. A judge promptly ordered the site closed.
Florida law enforcement officers hailed the arrests as a huge victory and
a significant step toward successful prosecution of sex crimes that have moved
from Main Street to Cyberville. Small catch: the site never closed; it’s still
active, including ads hawking $17,000 all day “dates” with famous porn stars.
“TELL ME ABOUT IT,” says a clearly frustrated Chris Brown, a prosecutor with
the Florida attorney general’s office, who is in charge of prosecuting the
case against the Web site known as Bigdoggie.net in an investigation dubbed
“Operation Flea Collar.”
Brown also charged a dozen others in conjunction with the two owners, lodging
57 counts ranging from racketeering to aiding and abetting prostitution. Brown’s
frustration is owed, in part, to the precedent setting approach he has taken
in the case only to see two-years of work languish as the case winds its way
through the court system. “As far as we know, this case may be the first or
one of the first, in which we are going after not only the prostitutes we
believe are the core members of this organization [bigdoggie.net] in the Tampa
area, but also the [Web site] owners and the registered users of the Web site,”
Brown said.
But Brown didn’t stop at the flesh and blood. “We took out an arrest warrant
on the company,” that owns Bigdoggie.net,” Brown said. “Well, how do you arrest
a company?” he asks rhetorically. “Certainly it has been done, but it’s not
a road you go down very often.” And for now the owners of Bigdoggie have chosen
to disregard the court order to shut down the site or, upon posting $100,000
bond, ensure that “no illegal activity” is being facilitated on their site.
“They’ve just thumbed their nose at it (the court order),” Brown says of the
Bigdoggie’s owners.
HOOKERS AND HURDLES
The Bigdoggie case is big news for those trafficking in the soft white underbelly
of the Web more commonly known as “adult content.” Brown cast his prosecutorial
net broader than any other such case; going after registered users of the
site is grist for columns and activists of all stripe. The Bigdoggie site
doesn’t actually participate in setting up the dates. “It wouldn’t be a site
that you would say is a pimp,” Brown said, though “there are those types of
sites.” Mostly those are run by independents, those sex workers who have moved
off the grid, off the streets, out of the yellow pages and onto Web servers
in Toledo or Des Moines or Burbank.
Bigdoggie is “about the facilitation of prostitution,” Brown said, “it ranks
prostitutes in geographic areas … and they don’t call them prostitutes, they
call them ‘escorts.’” And the Johns? “They call themselves ‘hobbyists,’” says
Brown with a bit of a laugh. “Of course they are disregarding the fact that
it’s an illegal hobby.” Brown acknowledges that, despite high profile corporate
crime cases like Enron and WorldCom, the courts are still a tad unsure of
how to prosecute a company. “Another difficulty is that you can’t put a company
in jail so who do you punish?” Brown asks. “I think the logical connection
is you punish the person who is in charge of the company,” he says.
HIDE AND PEEK
Metropolitan police forces are becoming increasingly aggressive in targeting
so-called “escort services” that advertise online. Chicago has a special unit
dedicated to vice crimes facilitated in cyberspace. Chicago’s special online
vice squad trolls escort sites advertising in the city limits, officers make
appointments and when money changes hands, the arrest is made. The squad reportedly
averages 15 arrests per month. But it’s not only the large cities that are
going after online sex workers. In Milwaukee, the police arrested a woman
on prostitution charges resulting from a personal ad she placed on Yahoo!
The police were tipped off about that ad which specifically mentioned that
she would come to Milwaukee and trade sex for money.
Sex workers of all kinds are homesteading the Web, some out of a belief that
it’s a “safer” environment than being on the street. Using online services
for prostitution purposes is the “wave of the future,” said prosecutor
The number of people this year inquiring about setting up escort Web sites
“has gone from zero to 60 mph in 4.9 seconds,” says Joe Obenberger, a Chicago-based
attorney specializing in the online adult entertainment field. “Beginners
in the profession can have the same misconceptions that ‘civilians’ have,”
says Tracy Quan, author of the novel Diary of a Manhattan Call Girl. “We hear
people saying: ‘There are all these escort ads in the (print) Yellow Pages,
therefore the vice squad is not making arrests.’ But the ads don’t mean that
arrests have stopped. The ads actually mean that the police have an easy target.
The same thing is true for the online medium,” said Quan, herself a former
prostitute and spokesperson for PONY, a prostitutes and sex workers advocacy
group based in New York. “I think the escort business can be done (online)
legally, I think it can be done quite illegally, too,” Obenberger said. That
“best of times, worst of times” statement really sums up the current legal
climate when it comes to enforcing sex crimes facilitated online.
“This is a complex area with lots of different laws that inter-relate to it
and lots of doctrines of law,” Obenberger said. “If you know the crime is
being committed and you facilitate it, you’re guilty of the crime,” he said.
“That’s the underlying principle.”
HOOKERS ARE PEOPLE, TOO
Prosecutor Brown said he’s taken testimony from an escort nabbed in the Bigdoggie.net
investigation in which she admitted to putting ads into online dating services,
hoping to rustle up some clients. Brown said she wrote the ads using “code
words” such as looking for a “generous man” to date. When you see that, Brown
said, “apparently there’s a good chance you’re talking about prostitution
because she did end up getting people contacting her and they did have prostitution
‘events’ off of that personal ad.”
That experience doesn’t square with Quan’s personal knowledge. “I have not
heard any stories from sex workers about finding customers at online dating
services,” she said, though she didn’t doubt that was happening. “Prostitutes
are part of everyday life ... so why wouldn’t we go to the places on the Internet
where everyone else goes?”
Brown, the Florida prosecutor says he has “no illusions” that the case against
Bigdoggie is going to put a dent in the practice of soliciting sex acts online.
“Our position on this really was that we needed to start somewhere; we needed
to set some precedent in how these cases can be prosecuted successfully, maybe
help out fellow law enforcement organizations around the country. If they
see it can be done, that’s the chilling effect we’re looking for.”
Source:
http://www.msnbc.com/modules/exports/ct_email.asp?/news/809825.asp
Article shared with full credit and no commercial purpose under the fair use
educational provisions of the U.S. Copyright Law and International treaties.
Dave writes the MSNBC editor:
Prosecutors and law enforcement should be more interested in violence or real
crime but being morality police. The U.S. is almost the only country in the
world where consenting adult in private sexwork is illegal.
Enforcing morality laws when no real crime is involved puts notches in their
belt and wins support from those who know what is best for us. I understand
with the Bush administration more police funds are being used to fight ("Vice")
Such a oxymoron since sexwork in private by pros is so beneficial for a culture.
And of course it is so much more fun to chase attractive women with dangerous
breasts benefiting our culture, instead of those nasty real criminals that
are hurting people and have those big guns that go bang instead of breasts
to fondle (as they often have).
When almost all of the rest of the world, "gets it" that private consenting
adult sex is beneficial, the U.S. remains one of the few nations in the world
where its a moral crime. Just like living with someone not your spouse or
having oral sex (crimes against nature) is illegal in many states and was
in AZ until this year. These were hardly every prosecuted, but if convicted
of prostitution (even private and no real crime involved) you face mandatory
jail time. THAT IS NOT A PLEASANT EXPERIENCE and may cost the providers $5000-10,000+
in legal fees if she fights it. Or she is threatened by LE to have her children
taken away by CPS for her morality crime. Or, she will be coerced by threats
to go undercover and work with LE to bust other wonderful private providers.
I hear of this all the time. That is how sick our culture is because of the
power of those that know what is best for you.
For example, Canada ...only a few hours away without the legal issues, wonderful,
beautiful sexwork providers, honest web site ads, often much more wonderfully
intimate for $US100/hr or so and a huge number of honest choices. And of course
Canada is a MUCH less violent nation. Studies have linked lack of easy sexual
relaxation to more violent cultures in history.
Even in Iran... they are proposing licensing of brothels like in most of the
world except the U.S.. Many sexworkers have told me of Muslim clients who
recite the marriage for a few hours lines and they are legally married and
its no moral or legal issue. They can as many wives as they wish for any length
of time. This is similar to biblical times when a man could have as many wives,
concubines (often for breeding) and "common" prostitutes and it was never
a sin or wrong. Yet Christian anti-sex traditions to control people are very
strong, with no legitimate biblical basis.
8/3/02 Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Press Release
"As part of the on-going investigation reference “Operation Flea Collar”,
twenty-eight year old Holly Oleary turned herself in yesterday, August 1,
2002 at the Orient Road Jail. She is charged with 2 counts of Prostitution
and 1 count of Racketeering.
Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Office along with Orange County State Attorney’s
office, Hillsborough County State Attorney’s Office and the Office of the
Statewide Prosecutor held a press conference on June 18, 2002 announcing the
results of a two-year investigation called “Operation Flea Collar”. Operation
Flea Collar was an elaborate worldwide internet prostitution ring.
The investigation continues."
A response on a public board:
Please, give me a break! The free communication of persons on an Internet
bulletin board - which even contains a open public section - can only be construed
as an 'elaborate worldwide ring' by someone exaggerating for political purposes.
8/2/02 Update: From A Tampa Board:
Many more arrests being made in Florida of TBD gals for RICO and prostitution
including
Bad Dog's favorite Tampa Bay squeeze Desiree Dante. Charge sheet at
http://www.hcso.tampa.fl.us/pub/default.asp?/Online/qdisp/bn=02043730
.
The Big Pooch hosted her escort web site at
http://www.bigdoggie.net/sites/desiree.
But it looks like ol' Charles Kelly just took Desiree's site down!
Des's site was live just a few days ago. He must be really worried that she
is rolling on him. Wonder if ••• removing Des's web site is "destroying evidence?"
Also notice how low Desiree's bail is, bet she got a deal for telling LE what
she knows about Charles. He is gonna be wearing Orange for a loooong time!
Several providers in Orlando have given over 100 customer names to LE. LE
is in process of interviewing the customers. Some in Tampa, most in the Orlando
area.
7/25/02 Dave's Overall Comments
While I despise TBD personally for all of his years of lies, antics
and one of the worst examples for an industry needing to be seen as more professional,
healing and having integrity, ,....what if....he beat the prostitution charges?
That would be positive for sexworkers all over the U.S. and might discourage
other prosecutions.
But if he loses and gets long time in jail it will encourage more victimless
morality law enforcement and the Bush-Ashcroft boys who know what is best
for all of us will be rejoicing with the U.S. being almost the only place
in the world where even TBD's antics would be a criminal issue.
The details of a trial will be very interesting and good be a "landmark" case
for future aggressive morality enforcement which ever way the case turns out.
For this reason I hope he wins which may come as a shock to many since I have
been exposing his antics actively and my interest of bringing honestly and
integrity to sexwork. These qualities are totally opposed to TBD's ways, yet
the prostitution laws issue is far more important than looking for avenge
against the biggest slime ball in the industry - TBD.
7/21/02 Anatomy of TBD Bust - Huge New Information in Charge Report Exhibit
A
I have tried to summarize the most important points of this huge document
and rearranged the order somewhat for easier understanding. It is public
information available to anyone under Florida's Sunshine Law.
If you read the 35 page exhibit to the charge report it confirms many of the
rumors about TBD personal acts over the years. However, more important it
shows what a huge amount of police resources were wasted on enforcing the
prostitution morality laws and how extensive it was. So much tax payers dollars
going after victimless morality crimes, should make the religious right very
happy - but intelligent citizens should be outraged. The results of the case
will be very important and I ... somewhat ... support even TBD against many
of the charges even though I personally despise him and his well known and
now confirmed antics. Yet most of TBDs problems are just dumb actions that
clearly violate the law and now I clearly understand why the RICO charges
were brought. On the other hand, all his acts other than wanting unprotected
sex, were harmless and between consenting adults, or business arrangements
for sex, that hurt no one other than perhaps civilly by making or breaking
a providers career by his reviews.
Clearly the charge have nothing to do with free speech but about prostitution
laws. As one poster on a Tampa board says, "From reading the exhibit, it seems
like there is a pretty strong case -- and with the IRS involved, this could
be the tip of the iceberg. I think that anyone looking at this needs to understand
that in the law there is the concept of conspiracy and that is what this case
is really about. The First Amendment arguments fade fast. The corpulent canine
was far from the "innocent printer" who merely accepted ads but did nothing
else to further the biz."
"Brief?" Summary and interesting tidbits
In 2000 LE initiated a prostitution/racketeering investigation of "Private
Pets" escorts originally owned by John Hubard which resulted in a successful
racketeering prosecution. The investigation began as the result of a complaint
about bigdoggie.net which carried Private Pets ads and Charles Kelly (aka
TBD) would sell advertising in exchange for sexual services from the escorts.
Mr. Hubard also was sending information to LE (voluntarily with no guarantees
of a reduced sentence for his RICO conviction). In fact during this time he
was invited to moderate the TBD-Tampa board. He provided information about
a hotmail account that may have been a clearinghouse for sensitive information
between the inner core of the TBD organization. He is scheduled to provide
a proffer regarding the entire investigation and all he knows about TBD.
An escort for Private Pets told LE that owner Hubard regularly sent herself
and other escorts to Charles Kelly (TBD) "and advised her to make him happy."
The escort understood this to mean "full service (sex)." She stated he solicited
unprotected oral sex from her. She refused but assisted TBD with digital masturbation
in order for him to be sexually erect and put on a condom. She stated that
Charles Kelly (TBD) was having troubles "functioning". TBD than attempted
vaginal intercourse, but was unsuccessful, again due to erection problems.
She discussed with him the board and his exploits with other escorts. She
says TBD stated that he started the board to assist in the facilitation of
prostitution. TBD stated he receives the services of up to 5 prostitutes a
week.
She said that TBD had a reputation of being able to make or break an escort's
career, with reviews on the board (using the screen name "Lap Fanatic". She
stated that Private Pets received free or very discounted ads on bigdoggie.net
as long as escorts employed by Private Pets had sex with Charles Kelly (TBD).
As further confirmation of this important point, LE has a proffer from the
Statewide Prosecutor by Teresa Johnson aka Brodie, that during sworn testimony
she says Charles Kelly personally told her that advertising by Private Pets
on bigdoggie.net was paid for by the escorts of Private Pets having sex with
him (Charles Kelly).
LE developed a very extensive investigative strategy to determine the illegal
activities of TBD and the website. Charles Kelly has a prior criminal history
for fraud. LE set up many different identities with different IP addresses
on the TBD boards. "The re-occurring theme of the message board has been the
promotion of prostitution."
Reverse Sting
Starting in January 2002, vice placed various sting ads on TBD, for fake providers
including Peggy in Tampa, Millennium Babe and Lia Nice. The Lia Nice TBD ad
which had nice pictures of an informant and positive LE submitted reviews.
it "immediately involved a heavy, positive response from patrons who made
so many visits to the site, that same had to be shut down on occasion by geocities
due to broadband failure. Within two weeks of the opening of this website
and advertising same in www.bigdoggie.net, the HCSO Vice Section made 6 arrests..."
Apparently they all agreed to testify about other women they had had sex with
as a result of ads and reviews on TBD. This resulted in initially six of the
prostitution arrests but there may be more as the investigation is ongoing.
They male informants also set up many providers and were so convincing as
honest clients they even had escorts refer them to other escorts and verify
they were not LE. But they were working as confidential informants for LE.
Many of the providers that were arrested gave up other providers and gave
LE extensive info on others and on TBD mostly in exchange for not being charged.
No men were charged except TBD and his business associate Steve Lispon.
Stacy Dahl was involved in organizing functions and meetings between escorts
and customers of TBD including discussions about avoiding detection by LE,
and information about stings. LE was on her E-mail list and attended the various
meetings. One meeting she hosted was a lecture from an attorney about law
enforcement issues. The attorney "said nothing improper and offered no information
on how to illicitly avoid detection by law enforcement." Stacy charged each
escort $85 to pay the attorney a $500 speaking fee. The meeting was attended
by an undercover LE posing as a provider and the Metropolitan Bureau of Investigation
in Orange County also had an undercover provider in place as well as HCSO
(Hillsborough County Sheriff Office).
Another meeting also under surveillance with escorts in which Charles Kelly
(TBD) apparently controlling the meeting. The licenses of cars in the parking
lot were run to confirm the identify of those in attendance.
In the reverse sting, there were many posts warning that the posts were from
LE but the informants did a good job trying to convince folks there reviews
were real. They were good liars. But this was the informants mostly not LE.
Another local board was run by "Bags" at www.Bagmenboard.net where SexxxxyNikki
made several posts warning about the LE reviews on TBD. "The Bagmans Board,
was similar in content (to TBD) though not as sophisticated." LE joined Bag's
board as Millennium Babe and Lia Nice. The owner Bags, sent LE E-mails and
warned that Lia Nice was a LE sting but Millennium Babe was allowed by Bags
to continue to post. Bags also "solicited Millennium Babe, though he did not
offer money for sex."
There were also escort informants who participated in the more private Providers
Message Board who provided information to LE about the discussions on the
Providers only board about LE.
Stacy Dahl also arranged a meeting with TBD board members and an attorney
on First Amendment issues. "It should be noted that this writer did not observe
any notes taken about this lecture by said lawyer that indicated any improper
conduct or advice on his part."
Stacy Dahl (aka xxxxxxxxxxx was under intense surveillance. Her garbage was
searched and a handwritten list of TBD board members was found for invited
guests for the various meetings she invited escorts and others to attend.
Also the IP address for "Lia" the undercover escorts names. The significance
of the IP address is that the undercover portion of the investigation was
compromised when suspected LE member accounts had similar IP's.
On 4/17/02 at 4am, LE retrieved trash in front of TBD's residence and found
a letter from Mercedes of Tampa thanking him for his recent vehicle lease.
A subpoena was served on Mercedes of Tampa as well as his Bank of America
Account. On his credit application for the Mercedes-Benz 220 worth $86,706,
he claims his sole income is from TBD Enterprises and he makes $18,000/month.
LE contacted IRS Agent Mike Hatfield and faxed him the documents.
It seems his bank account grew much faster in 2002 with his increased fees
and memberships. For April 2002, this bank account had deposits of $51,426.16
in deposits of which $48,195.79 was withdrawn during the month. Also noted
were several withdrawals made at ATM's at adult clubs in Tampa, including
Ybor Strip and Mon's Venus (the famous strip club under LE attack).
There is MUCH more in the exhibit which was needed to support the current
criminal charges. I have the entire 35 page public exhibit at
http://www.sexwork.com/TBD/exhibit_A.zip.
However, the investigation is ongoing and there may be much more evidence
obtained and charges made before trial. (
Note the file at http://www.sexwork.com/TBD/exhibit_A.zip is a zipped .pdf file. So you need both an unzip program and Acrobat Reader to read .pdf files. Acrobat the free version is all you need and is available at http://www.adobe.com/acrobat. It is a common format for files. The file is over 1.7mb even zipped so is large.
Tabaitha Blue
On a good note, after spending a month in jail on $80,000 bond (more than
for TBD himself who was bailed out in a few days, and she is only mentioned
in the report for a couple prostitution charges based on male informants),
she finally got a bail hearing and bail was reduced to $5000 and she somehow
posted it and was released!
7/14/02 The TBD Bust - Free Speech or his direct Prostitution "antics"?
More Details of the TBD Charges
Highlights from post on
http://www.wookworld.com/choot/verbage/ a Tampa Discussion board.
To me, this shows it has nothing to do with just Freedom of Speech issues,
but may relate to advertising when TBD had sex with the prostitutes advertised,
and interestingly the exposing of and the deletion of the post of Lia Nice
when it was discovered the post was done by LE as part of the sting which
brought in so many customers.
A copy of Case No.: 02-CF-9457 (60 pages) and "Exhibit A" (36 pages) can be
picked up at the Hillsborough County Clerk of Court Office located 801 East
Twiggs St, Room 119, Felony Division, (813) 276-8100. You may need to mention
it is the case of the State of Florida vs. Charles Kelly et al. (The cost
is $1.00 per page). Dave notes under Florida Sunshine law, public records
can also be ordered by phone or mail and no reason is required.
The case is 57 counts against 13 individuals and ••• Partners. Partial Highlights
follow:
Prostitution - Deriving Support - charged against Charles Kelly, Steve Lispon
and TBD Partners. Each count is based on each of the 11 female defendants.
Prostitution - Aiding or Abetting - charged against Charles Kelly, Steve Lipson
and ••• Partners. Each count is based on each of the 11 female defendants.
Obstructing or opposing an officer without violence - charged against Charles
and Steve. Based on terminated the membership of Lia Nice
Tampering with or fabricating physical evidence - charged against Charles
and Steve. Removing posted messages by Lia Nice.
Resisting officer without Violence to their person - against Nikki by exposing
Lia Nice on the board.
---
(Dave notes: even warning about the LE sting post is charged as a resisting
officer crime! I would think this would be protected free speech, but maybe
not. The removal of the post and cancellation of membership is the charge
of obstruction and tampering.
Each of 11 women which I didn't list here but is in the public record were
charged with prostitution. For most extensive list and additions see
http://www.wookworld.com/choot/verbage/.
There are also some women for whom arrest warrants are out and others in Orlando
that have not been charged by Tampa authorities but we do not know if Orlando
PD is preparing charges for Orlando women.
The charges against the women may be based on the listed customer informants
and/or sting set up based on their ads or participation in the discussion
boards. The posts are not illegal but just like on Phoenix-TBD it is well
known that LE has set up stings on providers that posted.)
---
Then there are 60+ 'predicate incidents' which are mostly the previous charges.
The first addition is - Charles purchased services from: 1) ~Kelly~ twice,
2) CI-02-06, 3) Spring Cook, 4) Michelle Allen, 5) Kara Morera, and 6) Angela
Wynn.
Jim Kaufman "Bagman" purchased the services of ~Kelly~.
Aiding and abetting by Charles for: Spring Cook, Michelle Allen, Kara Morera,
Becky Petrucelli, "Sandy", "Raven", John Hubard.
Conspiracy to commit racketeering - charged against all 14 defendants.
In "Exhibit A", you will be able to find/deduce the following information
regarding probably informants:
WI-02-02 = Iam Ishkibber (Don)
WI-02-03 = Chas the man (Charlie)
CI-02-70 = Kitten Connoisseur (Robert)
CI-02-73 = Jackson (Jeff)
CI-02-69 = ~Kelly~
(CI=Confidential Informant, WI=Witness.)
In addition to the formal charges made against the defendants, the above gentleman
also accused other ladies of prostitution. They are:
Ish - Natasha & Pamela of Miami, Monica of Jax and Swedish Pamela
Chas - Katrina Sweet and Desiree Dante
Kitten - Khana
Jackson - Desiree Dante, Khana, Silvia, and ~Kelly~
This exhibit also includes information on: Private Pets, "Misty", "Cookie",
"Barbie Doll of Tampa", Bart, Tampa Tiger, St. Pete Joe, "Soft and Sassy",
"SugarCayne", "Maggie of Tampa", "Peggy in Tampa", "Millennium Babe", teethi,
"Kiera", oceancat, chynalynn/bimmer, The Bagman Boards, Bags, TampaWhistleBlower,
Dick, Spocko, Brodie, Lynn, Allana Allure, Aniece as well as many others.
Again, this is information was obtained by the State of Florida Sunshine Law.
These are the facts. Obtain a copy to verify.
Another example of why we don't think this is a free speech issue:
St. Petersburg Times article said: "Kelly (TBD) also exchanged sex for advertising,
he said." That was a quote from sheriff's Cpl. Kirk Bowling. That does show
the police knew, but just didn't include it in the charge report. The key
question would be if any of the busted girls or those let go for cooperation
had exchanged sex for ads or higher TOP list placement and will testify to
that effect.
As most people know I detest TBD personally and have exposed many of his antics,
lies and slander. However I also want to know the facts and direct energy
at the real issues. Unfortunately it may be a long time before any trial or
public release of further details that would let us know if its far more than
just a freedom of speech issue related to the board, or if it about his personal
"antics".
Another reply wisely said:
Litigation,whether civil or criminal, is a like a poker game,with both sides
trying to legally hide what they're holding as much and as long as possible,while
engaging in feints and bluffs. As the case progresses,discovery occurs and
the prosecution gets defendants to roll over,I'm sure you'll see development
of the " Cyber Pimping theory " discussed in this thread.
And fwiw, I am troubled that LE uses resources to prosecute sex crimes(including
Ashcroft's New Orleans case) but again, if , what has been allged against
TBD,whehter in the crim information or otherwise is true, the man is an extortionist
and a pimp. Perhaps it is in recognition of the fact that he is such an unsympathetic
defendant that he was chosen to send a message.
------------
7/13/02 Sample of Easy To Find "TBD Antic's Report" that I would think would
mean police investigated and might be the real basis of their going after
TBD, for not just hosting the TBD board. Just do a Google Search and you find
a very detailed post which is a good summary of what so many others have known
for years about TBD's "antics" and why so many people detest TBD personally:
From: HRClinton (hrclinton@aol.com)
Subject: Charles Kelly's Tampa-based Internet Prostitution Empire
Newsgroups: alt.sex.prostitution
Date: 2000-12-30 14:51:28 PST
Charles Kelly's Tampa-based Internet Prostitution Empire
Charles Stuart Kelly
(personal info deleted)
Runs the largest internet prostitution operation in North America. See www.bigdoggie.net
In operation for the past three years. Now claims more than 1 million site
visits per month.
Charges prostitutes as much as two thousand dollars a month (cash only) for
"high ratings" on his "Top 100" list of internet-based prostitutes. See www.bigdoggie.net/national.htm.
Also demands and receives sexual services from many if not all highly ranked
prostitutes. Often refuses to wear condoms when receiving sexual services
from women seeking a high rating and "good reviews" on his prostitution board,
even for anal sex. In exchange, keeps message boards free of postings that
would hurt the business of protected prostitutes.
Kelly is a former computer analyst for the National Science Foundation in
Washington, DC. Head of Microsoft-backed World Association of NT User Groups,
a technical organization for software developers and other IT professionals.
Sometimes tells prostitutes he is a high ranking Microsoft official.
Threatens posters who complain about the misbehavior of protected prostitutes
with "outing" on his own message boards. Threatens and harasses the operators
of other internet prostitution boards. Has forged various business alliances
with other interstate prostitution operations to promote prostitution on his
own site. See www.tbdxciteme.net and www.bigdoggie.net/pornstar.htm. Has claimed
that FBI officials have given him permission to continue operating his site.
Operates other, nonpublic boards that permit prostitutes to share personal
information about clients. Has occasionally used that information to threaten
clients with public exposure.
The source of the funds to develop and operate such a vast internet business
is uncertain. Lives in a $200,000 house in Tampa.
Involvement of wife Cheryl, a computer software analyst, in the operation
of Kelly's enterprise also uncertain. Kelly has claimed in the past that his
wife also enjoys the services of prostitutes, alone or with Kelly.
Insists on being addressed as "Big Dog" or "TBD."
Substantial documentation of all the above claims is available through simple
internet searches and posts that appear on his own site. Additional written
documentation, including phone records and taped conversations, is being provided
to the U.S. Attorney's Office in NYC, the FBI, the Internal Revenue Service's
fraud division, and the Florida State Police.
End of Easy to find newsgroup post
Dave says: Of course all of this is hearsay and is of no use to police as
evidence. But with such widespread knowledge and so many others, including
providers that have reported these antics, I would think that LE has investigated
this and may have witness and proof which would make the case far more than
just a free speech issue about the TBD board.
7/12/02 TBD Bust Update
Ground Zero Board in Tampa
http://www.wookworld.com/
Since most honest posters that aren't just in the TBD glee club have their
posts deleted on TBD and banned there is a Tampa discussion board that actually
practices free speech unlike TBD and has a lot of input by local Tampa folks
that knew much more about the bust and knew many of the providers involved.
There were many guys busted also but none were charged in exchange for their
cooperation with LE.
Here is a post by the board founder that mirrors my views and that of many
other honest people - wookman on Saturday, July 06, 2002
"It is no secret that I do not care for (TBD), a.k.a. Charles Kelly. I my
mind, he got what he deserved. His site had honest beginnings in that it was
a good place for discussion. Then it went to his head. You could not express
an opinion contrary to his or your post got deleted. If you complained about
his censorship, you were cut off from posting. I still get a chuckle when
I think about him implying to me that he worked for the CIA. Wish I had printed
that e-mail out and kept it! What a moron...
And he got greedy. He let his site get too big and to commercial. With all
of those ass kissing fools, like Jackson, heaping so much praise on him and
his paid advertisers, his ego took over his head. They way he patronized his
favorite girls was stomach churning. At least I am smart enough not to make
any money doing this. I just provide a discussion forum. What you do based
upon those discussions is up to you. That is all Kelly should have done.
And Jackson is no prize either. He came over here and tried to throw his weight
around and made all kinds of threats because I let people say what they wanted
to say.
All I can say is that they brought it all upon themselves and they got what
they deserved. Too bad it took so long..."
7/11/02 TBD Bust Update
Big Dog TBD out on bail in a few days, while the "little people" remain in
jail.
Big Dog TBD out on bail in a few days, while the "little people" remain in
jail. According the the Sheriff's website status of arrest page - TBD's bail
was only $65,000. He got all his charges except RICO to have no bond required,
while all the same charges of Tabaitha have mostly $10.000 bail requirements
for each. TBD got a good attorney that got bail waived for all but the RICO
charge! And TBD is the leader of the criminal enterprise, not Tabaitha. Yet,
Tabaitha Blue is still in jail with far fewer charges facing an $80,000 bail
requirement!!
While TBD solicits legal defense funds TBD, Steve and his closest friends
quickly got out of jail on reduced bail. Tabaitha Blue still sits in
jail with no attorney, no public defender, no phone call access, no substantial
assets for bail as of Tues 7/9-3 weeks after her arrest on a ridiculous 80K
bail. From all reports she was a wonderful honest sweet provider that was
one of the targets of the many stings on TBD by Florida LE.
Someone with some contact with her says, "she is of course VERY upset and
understandably angry at her treatment regarding the lack of resources inside
the jail, she is of course at their mercy and completely and literally defenseless."
TBD and his associates get out in a few days on bail, but the "little people"
who didn't make millions like TBD did, have not received any support as promised
from TBD's legal defense fund or his attorney as contributors to the legal
defense fund were told.
Someone on TBD found an attorney interested in helping but first needs the
usual retainer fee and help is being solicited on TBD-National. Attorney is
Jeffrey Blau, Attorney at Law, 1511 S Church Avenue, Tampa, FL 33629-5822.
He has agreed to take her case-he even agreed to go meet her before he had
the funds in his hands. No one has said how much of a retainer is needed.
Someone said, "should this case go all the way to trial the costs could be
as much as 50-80K but hey if we can just get her atty several thousand...well
it would sure help get her out at this point!"
Someone said, "Mr. Blau is a solo practitioner with excellent criminal defense
and first amendment credentials in Tampa. Glad to see she finally has legal
representation."
Her jail status can be seen by the world at
http://www.hcso.tampa.fl.us/pub/default.asp?/Online/qdisp/bn=02036105#ALIAShttp://www.hcso.tampa.fl.us/pub/default.asp?/Online/qdisp/bn=02036105#ALIAS
7/10/02 TBD Updates
BTW isn't it ironic that TBD supporters are yelling Free Speech, yet they
deny it to anyone who isn't just the TBD praise club supporting TBD. If anyone
posts anything honest that TBD doesn't like, he or she is banned from the
board. Not exactly Free Speech! He has banned innumerable people in the last
few years for criticizing his well known tactics.
A good post on TBD about the Bust real issue and my E-mail response:
We are under siege, unless we all stand up
Posted by Cherie , Wed, Jul 10, 2002
In our current repressive political climate, all of the sex industry is under
siege. ISWFACE hopes to raise awareness of who suffers when the sex industry
is attacked and we are put out of work. We are struggling to raise families
support our studies, while providing a nurturing service. ISWFACE wants to
destigmatize our industry. Challenging public perception of us and our industry
WILL change public policy for the better.
"Like entering any other profession, becoming a prostitute is a choice. Exercising
free choice of professions is certainly guaranteed to us by the Constitution
and the Bill of Rights, as long as the profession we choose doesn't harm the
person or property of a nonconsenting other. We may not treat sex workers
with the reverence, that once was given the sacred prostitute (yes in the
ancient Judaic culture, we were put on a pedastal) , but sexual professionsals
are entitled to the respect, protection against violence, and freedom to make
a living that anyone else has" (Ain't NOBODY'S BUISNESS if you do by Peter
McWilliams)
If any of you are interested in more information on this foundation, please
feel free to contact me, as I have been trying to get a hold of Norma Jean
to no avail, at this time, but I do know that, Victor (her husband, best friend,
and the love of her life) has been taken ill, so I am sure she is very busy.
Please, we all need to work together, providers and hobbyists alike, if want
to get our voices heard and not be mowed down by the conservatives, who seem
to be the only ones speaking. Lets show them we have unity to.
My Response:
Cherie
Supporting an organization is one thing, deciding on what can be done to have
any effect is a much more complex issue without any easy answers in our political
climate.
Good post on TBD, but sadly the solutions are far from simple. To be a prostitute
is not a constitutional right like free speech is. That is why the legibility
of TBD board itself has never been an issue. But you have gotten to the heart
of the matter, prostitution is the issue.
As we have seen in San Francisco, even if a city wants to get rid of its prostitution
laws, as recommended in its extensive citizens study, they are dead in the
water since the State has treated to step in and enforce California anti-sex
laws.
The only long shot hope is public education and awareness of the POSITIVE
aspects of how in private consenting adult sexworkers BENEFIT society and
put pressure on AG's not to prosecute such cases unless there is some other
real crime involved - like the San Francisco chief prosecutor has said.
Also making people aware that we are one of the few countries in the world
that criminal private voluntary independent sexwork. That is why I enjoy Canada
so much!
But any solution to the problem is very difficult. One step is to get pressure
on Congress to at least pass The United Nations Convention on the Elimination
of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women. It has been signed by 169 other
nations - all Western countries except the U.S. One of its provisions is the
right of women to voluntarily choose sexwork as a basic human right. I have
details in the Decriminalization section of sexwork.com and there was a good
updated news article last week I haven't reported on yet. It is not the total
solution for many reasons but its a step.
My main idea: Coalition To Decriminalize Prostitution NOW! At: http://www.sexwork.com/coalition/index.html
This is a separate huge resource center to educate the public and help coalitions
change the law instead of just complaining about it. Most countries have decriminalized
prostitution long ago. When will WE stop wasting so many police and financial
resources trying to prevent in-private sexual fulfillment which benefits many
cultures? Includes information on many other countries laws.
Unfortunately other than many articles for sexwork.com I have written over
the years, I have no time or financial resources myself to be more active
or involved than I already am.
I have exposed the antics to TBD for years and because I believe in honestly
and integrity the very opposite of what TBD does, Like so many other honest
people, I have been banned from TBD boards. But while I detest TBD personally,
the issue of the prostitution laws that he is charged with violating need
to be changed. But sadly I doubt it will happen for at least another generation.
But I support all activities that bring the issue to the public about our
lack of adult sexual freedoms that sexworkers in most of the rest of the world
enjoy.
Cherie's early post about ICWFACE
http://www.iswface.org/
lADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I AM CONSTANTLY READING ABOUT HOW WE NEED TO GET LAWS
CHANGED FOR SEX-WORKERS, WELL FIRST WE NEED AN ORGANIZED FOUNDATION (WHICH
WE ALREADY HAVE) RUN BY COMPETENT AND CARING PEOPLE (AGAIN, WE ALREADY HAVE).
"ICWFACE IS A NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATION, BASED IN LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, FOUNDED
AND STAFFED BY CURRENT, AND TRANSITIONING SEX WORKERS."
ICWFACE STANDS FOR INTERNATIONAL SEX WORKERS FOUNDATION FOR ART, CULTURE AND
EDUCATION. YOU MAY ALSO TAKE A TAX DEDUCTION ON ANY MONIES GIVEN. (IS THAT
INCENTIVE?)
ICWFACE WAS FOUNDED BY NORMA JEAN ALMODOVAR, SHE WROTE THE BOOK "COP TO CALL
GIRL" (SHE DECIDED TO BECOME A CALL GIRL WHEN SHE SAW THAT THERE WAS MORE
ETHICS WITH THE WORKING GIRLS, THAN THERE WAS IN THE LA POLICE DEPT, BECAUSE
OF THAT SHE SPEND 3 YRS IN PRISON) I HAVE SPOKEN TO THIS WONDERFUL LADY SEVERAL
TIMES OVER THE YRS AND SHE EXUDES NOTHING BUT PURE CLASS. (LOVE YA NORMA JEAN)
SO LADIES AND GENTLEMEN WHY DON'T WE ALL PUT OUR MONEY WHERE OUR MOUTH IS
AND CHECK OUT THIS WONDERFUL FOUNDATION, AND FOR THOSE OF US WHO FEEL WE CAN
BE MORE ACTIVE (SOME LADIES IN THE BIZ HAVE TO STAND ON THE SIDE, DUE TO CERTAIN
LEGALITIES) AND DONATE SOME TIME, LET'S DO IT.
===============================================
7/8/02 Update - TBD Ordered to Shut Site Down
It seems that the Prosecution's first attempt at shutting down the site failed
They tried to make shutting the site down a condition of bail for the principals
of the site at the Nebbia (related to bail) hearing on 6/21 and were effectively
denied that request by the Judge after it was argued that shutting the site
down would constitute a "prior restraint" of Free Speech.
Dave agrees there is a fine line here. The shut down order may be a free speech issue, but not clearly since it is only because of TBD's criminal activities which related to the TBD which is the issue, not free speech itself nor the TBD board itself other than TBD's OTHER CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES
CHARGES FILED IN PROSTITUTION WEB-SITE OPERATOR CASE - CORPORATION ORDERED
TO SHUT WEB-SITE DOWN
The Office of Statewide Prosecution, working with the Hillsborough County
Sheriff's Office and other state and federal law enforcement agencies in the
investigation dubbed "Operation Flea Collar," announces the filing of fifty-seven
counts on July 3, 2002, in Hillsborough County Circuit Court against fourteen
defendants regarding the worldwide Internet prostitution ring web site based
out of Tampa, Florida, www.Bigdoggie.net.
Charges against the fourteen charged defendants include Racketeering, Conspiracy
to Racketeer, Committing Prostitution, Deriving Support from Prostitution,
Aiding and Abetting Prostitution, Obstructing an Officer Without Violence,
and Tampering with Evidence. These charges range from First Degree Felonies,
punishable by up to thirty years incarceration, to Second Degree Misdemeanors,
punishable by up to sixty days incarceration. The filed charges include activities
in the Sixth, Ninth, Twelfth, Thirteenth, and/or Fifteenth Judicial Circuits
of Florida, that is Pasco, Pinellas, Orange, Osceola, Manatee, Sarasota, Hillsborough,
and/or Palm Beach Counties.
Also charged by the Office of Statewide Prosecution was the corporate entity
operated by the two principal defendants, known as TBD Partners, Inc., a Florida
Corporation, also known as TBD Enterprises, doing business as www.Bigdoggie.net.
This corporation originally registered the
www.Bigdoggie.net domain name, and
was charged after a Hillsborough Circuit Judge found probable cause that the
subject web site was principally used for the facilitation of illegal commercial
sexual activity and issued a Order for Summons.
Pursuant to the Order for Summons, TBD Partners, Inc., a Florida Corporation,
also known as TBD Enterprises, doing business as
www.Bigdoggie.net has been ordered
to take the web site off-line until it has posted a $100,000 bond and agreed
to comply with the following conditions:
(A) TBD Partners, Inc., a Florida Corporation, a/k/a TBD Enterprises, d/b/a
www.Bigdoggie.net's affirmative agreement not to communicate with, or link
to any other site dealing in or offering to deal in illegal commercial sexual
activity;
(B) The Defendant's affirmative agreement not to acquire or set up any other
website to be used for dealing in or offering to deal in illegal commercial
sexual activity;
(C) Defendant's affirmative agreement not to facilitate any illegal commercial
sexual activity;
(D) Upon proof to the Court of any breach of the aforesaid conditions, the
bond posted by the Defendant will be estreated.
Dave comments:
I think all this confirms that the board itself is not the legal issue but
TBD's direct participation in related activities but not the board itself.
So if he doesn't participate or promote prostitution (which was far more than
just having a board) the board would reopen..or not shut down.
His attorney's may fight the order and it may never be down.
Here is a post on another public board from a retired attorney that has some
good observations:
If you download and print out the full order you'll see these significant
features:
1/ The Florida AG has been working with not only several Counties across the
State, but now comments also that the feds were helping out. At least that
probably means no additional non-tax federal charges in central Florida to
worry about. (Miami is a whole different story.) The FBI probably provided
tech assistance with the site, e-mails, bugs, wiretaps, financial records.
etc.
2/ TBD must close down period, or post a $100,000 bond AND comply with three
threatening, vague, and overbroad conditions.
(A)"not to communicate with, or link to any other site dealing in or offering
to deal in illegal commercial sexual activity;"
(B) not to "set up any other website to be used for dealing in or offering
to deal in illegal commercial sexual activity;" AND
(C) "not to facilitate any illegal commercial sexual activity."
I suppose some consider that a narrow order, but communicating and facilitating
have First Amendment aspects that are being walked all over here.
If TBD violates any condition, he forfeits the $100,000 bond and is shut down.
The Judge would make that determination on a preponderance of the evidence,
not a jury, and not beyond a reasonable doubt.
One key expression is "illegal commercial sexual activity," in all of the
conditons, but the lead-in verbs are too broad and arguably violative of the
First Amendment.
The Order is intended to mean that TBD must drop his ads and links to any
agencies or individual escorts. TBD must not set up a new alternate site of
the same kind.
"Facilitate" is a very broad word, probably violative of the First Amendment
since it can reach lots of pure information that does not incite or lead inexorably
to illegal conduct.
Do reviews and postings "facilitate" illegal sex, or are they informational,
with only intervening independent causes, if that, over which TBD has no control
or even knowledge?
"Communicate with" also is overbroad because it further reaches First Amendment
expressive activity that does not incite, urge, or inexorably lead to illegal
conduct.
Amusingly, I cannot post this on TBD because I have criticized him in the
past and seem to be persona non grata over there, where he personally has
no respect for freedom of speech that disagrees with him. He has banned innumerable
people in the last few years for criticizing him. LOL.
His lawyers, if savvy, should take quick emergency appeals to contest these
restrictions on expressive communications. They go first to the Fla DCt of
Appeal, then the Fla Supreme Court, then to the Circuit Justice for the Eleventh
Circuit, Justice Anthony Kennedy, since the Supreme Court is in recess for
the summer.
I've gone down that path several times in my career, but am now happily retired
and just passing along thoughts.
Justice Kennedy wrote the 7-2 opinion of the Supreme Court this April striking
down the CPPA [Child Pornography Prevention Act] on First Amendment grounds
in Ashcroft v Free Speech Coalition. Any request for a stay at that level
would be presented to him.
The order finally names the working names of all of the Tampa-area women involved,
so the argument between myself and Fla Mod is moot. Now we know which ladies
were arrested, but that is not all of them. There are quite a few more over
in Orlando.
Stay tuned as this fascinating case works its way through the Courts. It is
stuck in state court of course since there is a pending state proceeding.
The State's effort to close down the message board and advertising/links goes
a step far beyond the racketeering and conspiracy charges that relate to prostitution
as opposed to free speech. There is at leat one felony charge against each
defendant. The message board is also property of the TBD defendants, and therefore
eventually subject to complete forfeiture to the State of Florida post-conviction,
if that happens.
The State of Florida will spend a fortune on this case which could have been
used on health and education instead, not to mention modern voting machines.
If the State regulated and lightly taxed the adult industries at various points,
we all would be much better off.
7/4/02 Update TBD Mess.
While TBD is soliciting funds for legal defenses many of the women caught
in the sting are in desperate financial situations.
For example a plea from another sexworker for her friend xxxxxx: "xxxxxxx
is in need of our financial assistance. Her own personal finances have been
tapped out. While it is absolutely wonderful (fabulous!!) that a fund has
been established for all involved; waiting in hopes for an uncertain and yet
to be determined portion of those collective funds, and when that assistance
may actually come through, is not something that can help out with her financial
needs presently."
For those who have been paying attention, Tabitha Blue has been in Jail since
the beginning of this nightmare she has not been able to bond out, or even
get legal counsel; Sweet Kelly has needed to solicit funds for her own legal
aid on these boards; and now Stacey Dahl is needing our help too.
(Note to TBD... I still helped out with the defense fund even though my "free
speech" rights were trampled all over by you. This is a new handle I was forced
to create because you deleted my earlier "polite but dissenting" post, banned
my other handle and blacklisted my other email address. I am not the only
one you have done this to. Appearing to support free speech, while squashing
it "behind the scenes" is not acceptable! I trust it won't keep happening.)"
6/26/02 Update
TBD E-mail solicitation for money
Dave, I received an e-mail from someone who is supposedly an attorney for
the Bigdoggie website, asking for contributions in their defense against LE.
Any idea what this is about?
Dave says: Seems silly when TBD made such a huge amount of money to be soliciting
contributions. It seems the attorney is legitimate but they make it sound
like its about the board, which it isn't. Even the police said it wasn't the
board that was illegal, but TBD's personal direct involvement in related criminal
activities.
In addition some folks are upset about being sent massive E-mail spam to solicit
the funds which seems to have been E-mailed to all TBD members.
On another public board, spygrrl on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 06:47 am said:
Now, as far as TBD goes...I won't send him a penny. A fellow provider paid
to attend the Las Vegas party, and she got snowed in and the airport closed,
so she missed it. When he announced the Atlantic City party, she asked if
she could attend free of charge since she missed the first one through no
fault of her own. No way, TBD said, in quite a few sarcastic, nasty and uncalled
for comments that were incredibly rude. (Not to mention he claimed to have
lost money on Las Vegas - yeah, right!
Cheap bastard, at our provider luncheon he had ordered us soup, salad, bread,
and brownies. Steve is the one who called to add chicken to the salad so we
could get some protein!)
I've known for some time that the claims that he gives out rankings and advertising
in exchange for free services from various escorts are true.
He banned a friend of mine over something she DIDN'T EVEN DO, then after he
realized he was wrong, instead of apologizing, wrote her this really condescending
letter about how he prides himself on being nice and fair and yadda yadda
yadda he un-banned her.
Yet he knowingly allowed an escort in my city to post as several different
personas, while the whole time as she was accused of this by people on the
board, she denied it...and even used both personas to attack a woman she was
jealous of.
Then there was the bitch on wheels who couldn't get along with anyone and
after we had to tolerate a year of her whining and bitching and nasty comments
to the men, she threatened a lawsuit against TBD over a bad review. He banned
her and wrote not one but several long ass speeches about the situation, deleted
everything in the database about or by her...then let her back on the boards
a few months later. (Can you say free p****? )
And ya know, after seeing him raise the rates like 3 times for membership,
and after listening to him cry poor all the goddamn time when in actuality
he's laughing all the way to the bank and making a fortune off of us...he
can rot in that damn jail cell. He didn't make the boards for OUR benefit.
He made them for the benefit of his BANK ACCOUNT and his Mr. Happy. And now
he can pay the lawyer with his own damn money.
Before you all call me a hypocrite...I post on TBD as an outlet for discussion
and socializing as I am not "out" to family or friends. I get virtually zero
business from there and therefore feel perfectly justified in biting the hand
that does not feed me but pathetically shills for "donations".
Original News Story of Bust
As a post on TBD-National says: "This board is a public discussion space,
tis true. But it is also a business - owned and operated by a corporation,
selling advertising and offering "services" for money (access to restricted
areas, etc.) and generating income for its stockholders. The speech occurring
here is protected by the 1st Amendment, but the business aspects are not;
if the prosecutors can satisfy a jury (likely to be comprised mostly of elderly
women, considering the jurisdiction) that THE BUSINESS did something illegal,
such as taking sexual acts in trade for advertising, then the business can
and will be shut down... which will take the board with it."
Here is one of best bottom line reason for the TBD bust and why other boards
are at far lower risk
From E_B_Samaritano well known poster in California says on terb.ca:
The TBD site is all but shut down. Expect that the court will issue an injunction
against further operation as a result of the indictment of the owners. The
owners gains from so called advertising are being challenged as he crossed
the line by becoming active in "transactions" between clients and escorts
not to mention that he extorted sexual favors for rankings and favorable mention
on his site..a fact that is well known by many of us who've been online for
a while.
TBD got busted for extortion and arrogance. It is widely known by many of
us who've been around the business for a while that he demanded freebies in
consideration for favorable mention and rankings on his site. National and
worldwide attention to his site did nothing to help his cause. He did agitate
the hornets nest in Tampa (both LE and providers/agency owners), a city where
they recently busted one of the most renown strip clubs in the US... Mons
Venus...This combined with the bible belt mentality of Tampa and you have
the right climate to precipitate just this kind of LE action.
Dave says: TBD probably has vast financial resources to hire the best attorneys
to fight the charges. Authorities froze the two men's bank accounts where
up to $30,000 to $80,000 a month was deposited. While TBD may not have access
to all his assets, he probably is wealthy enough to afford the best attorneys.
Hopefully if found innocent this could help others at least related to anything
just limited to the board itself. But he may be guilty of more direct involvement
and plea bargain to avoid a trial which could takes years for an outcome.
I doubt if he will have any trouble getting out on the $195,000 bail set.
From Providers:
by NatashaHenstridge , 6/19/2002 6:56:45 PM
Its been known that to get on his list you had to give money, or sex or both
to TBD or sex to one of his close friends. To all those who swear they never
met him. I believe you. You didn't need to meet him to mail him that money
order or send it Western Union. There is no free ride with TBD. He is a pimp
through and through and NO ONE got by without paying the piper.
Talisa , 6/19/2002 8:26:32 PM
I personally know a So Cal provider (I won't name her) who met with him so
she could be on his list. She spent 4 hours with him hanging out for free.
He asked for unprotected sex, she refused. She made his list but in the middle
and she did send him money from time to time to continue the "good will".
So don't tell me it wasn't going on because it was! I know another provider
who paid $500 to be on his list (near the bottom for only $500) though she
never actually met him. When he started squeezing her for more money after
a year, she refused and he took her off his list completely and sent her a
nasty catty email befitting a real pussy. Again, so don't tell me it wasn't
going on because I KNOW it was!
Details - TBD Bitten Hard by Morality Laws
Dave says: Believe it or not, as much as I despise TBD (Charles) personally,
for his dishonestly, lack of integrity, antics and his attacks on me, I support
him against the morality laws he is being charged with! All of us who
support consensual commercial sex need to be deeply concerned about what happened.
Yet it is not surprising because we live in a virtual police state controlled
by the moralists that enjoy enforcing morality laws instead of real crimes.
Exactly the opposite of the Canadian situation and most of the world.
Big Doggie, owner of the largest review board in the U.S., arrested along
with many escorts in Operation Flea Collar - U.S. tax dollars at work going
after morality crimes!
The website was owned and operated by Tampa resident Charles Kelly and Boca
Raton resident Steve Lipson.
Kelly was arrested on 39 counts of racketeering, deriving support from prostitution,
promoting prostitution and a variety of other charges. Lipson was arrested
on 40 counts of similar charges.
In addition charges against many of the escorts active on the boards, for
Racketeering, Conspiracy to Racketeer, Committing Prostitution, Deriving Support
from Prostitution, Aiding and Abetting Prostitution, Procuring Prostitutes,
Maintaining an Establishment for Prostitution, Resisting an Officer Without
Violence and Tampering with evidence.
As part of the two-year investigation, detectives posted a fictitious ad
on the Web site for "Lia Nice" using a photo of a bikini-clad female informant.
The ad, which offered the woman's services for $300 an hour, attracted thousands
of responses and six men were arrested for solicitation. They agreed to cooperate
in the investigation.
While I have long exposed the dishonestly of TBD and his antics, this is not
good! However, I doubt if any charges just related to the TBD board
itself will stick. In fact
A few links:
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/florida/MGA5R00BM2D.html
http://www.wtsp.com/news/2002_06/18_sex_ring.htm
http://www.hcso.tampa.fl.us/Press_Releases/Press_Releases/2002/02-270.htm
Video at http://64.156.27.241/0206/18/prostitutes_hi.wmv
Detectives said there was nothing illegal about the discussions, and in
order to arrest anyone they had to catch either the escorts or their customers
in the act of committing prostitution.
A Lawyer Speaks! Highlights of long discussion on TER:
In an earlier life form, I defended several high profile cases in Central
Florida,
TER is almost entirely free speech and press. The charges say that TBD was
more "hands on," beyond the line of pure information.
TBD was heavily into advertising and making money, a factor that detracts
from the speech side of his defense enormously. Ads and pics over there started
disappearing fast yesterday, leaving little xx's behind. TBD also owns part
of TBDXCiteMe.net or something, an escort ad board, plus.
TER is NOT run by a high profile guy who goes around the country supposedly
seeing lots of escorts, supposedly exchanging ad rate reductions for sex.
That seems to be a big part of the case according to the Sheriff and Florida
news.
Most importantly TER is simply NOT actively promoting prostitution in the
"in your face" hands on manner of which TBD is accused, or at all. TER has
never set any guy up to see any provider.
Who knows what private statements TBD has made that will be used against him
as admissions against penal interest. The press release quotes some, and there
are nine providers as defendants too who'll sing. LE will fan out and interview
all 100 escorts on the TBD Top List for the SE, most of whom are in Florida
and can be forced to testify under grants of immunity. That is where the testimony
on sex for advertising favors may come in.
The posts and reviews in TBD are all business records and may be fully admissible
in court for some purposes. I taught federal evidence at one time. This trial
will break new ground in the evidence field in many ways.
This TBD prosecution will have a huge chilling effect on the hobby. It is
another 9/11 to hobbyists and providers alike.
There is a danger that prosecutors all over the US, state & federal, will
use the Tampa pattern. The Florida prosecutors will be speakers at all kinds
of LE meetings, conventions, and donut tasting festivities. June 18 was "Dog
Day" in many ways. This will certainly get the attention of Ashcroft, and
he will want his piece of the pie, a higher profile similar prosecution, somewhere
else, such as Atlanta or LA. There are so many bad apples in LA that I cannot
imagine a good apple as being the target
Canadians say
This kind of thing happening in the states doesn't suprise me at all. Most
Americans still believe in legislating morality, that sex is immoral, etc.
There are several states where the selling of penis shaped sex toys will get
you thrown in jail, but the same states, it is perfectly legal to sell hand
guns to anyone who wants to buy it. Really, what is more obscene, a dildo,
or a hand gun??
Its a bitter pill to swallow. To the state county sheriff of Florida, busting
up people enjoying having *fun* with each other by doing the most natural
thing we human beings do is more dangerous then finding and tracking down
real criminals that kill/maim people. Real common sense there. Yea,sure,whatever
he thinks. Hmp. Btw,did you also know that its illegal to get a bj in Atlanta,Georgia?
Makes me glad to be a Canadian and that I live in Canada.
What an amazing waste of time and money. Last time I was down that way in
the bost on the Intra Coastal waterway couldn't find a law enforcement officer
anywhere when my boat got spray painted, I guess they were all on the Internet.
From Redbook San Francisco Discussion Board:
A preamble to the news story. one of the owners of TBD was on a Tampa bay
based nationally syndicated shock-jock radio show promoting his site and openly
thumbing his nose at local law enforcement. This got the redneck sheriffs
quite pissed.
It is also implied that TBD was 'managing' and getting a cut. This is what
brought them down. Bad ethics and a disregard of following the rules got them
busted. Please note in the article that discussion per say is not illegal.
This to allay any flaming of Redbook, etc.
TBD was notorious for asking 'favors for placement' nationally from providers.
I am thankful that these guys got their just desserts. You don't run a site
the way they did. You have to follow the rules. My take is that this is a
move to close down the site. I find it quite difficult to get the racketeering
charges to stick except for the 'managing' of the ladies. They were also funneling
the subscription fees to a bank account in Bermuda (I know because when I
paid for a subscription I was contacted by my credit card company wanting
an personal authorization).
Sites like ours walk a fine line, but a space freely protected by the First
Amendment if all we provide is a open forum for discussion
From Dave's E-mail
Hi Dave and thanks for the update. I haven't looked at TBD in a long time,
knowing the nature of the site and what it had become. This is one time I
disagree with you in principle. TBD has done more harm than good to our hobby.
It is an example of what can go wrong when greed and the need for publicity
exceeds common sense. The world is what it is, and no matter how we feel about
some issues, it is important to survive and somehow play our game without
arousing those who would bring us down. Charles is just another Gotti as far
as I'm concerned. No loss there. Regards, GJ
From a provider:
(client) He lives in Baltimore and knew all about the girl who was busted
in Orlando. She gave LE her "book" of names and numbers, (she was charged
with prostitution and a few counts for drugs), they started going down the
list calling people.
Newer Info:
As part of the two-year investigation, detectives posted a fictitious ad on
the Web site for "Lia Nice" using a photo of a bikini-clad female informant.
The ad, which offered the woman's services for $300 an hour, attracted thousands
of responses and six men were arrested for solicitation. They agreed to cooperate
in the investigation.
In February, Lia Nice was born. A deputy drew her first name from a stripper
he once busted for drugs. In 10 minutes the Web page received 3,000 hits,
Bowling said. "We had to shut it down," he said. Potential customers who offered
Lia Nice money for sex were persuaded to cooperate with the Sheriff's Office,
Bowling said, and provided the key to bringing the charges against Kelly,
Lipson and 21 women accused of prostitution. Bowling said that in the next
several weeks, he expects to make many more arrests in the case, including
clients. "We'll be knocking on a lot of people's doors," he said.
From another board which is my same view from exchange of E-mails:
"Two years ago he was asked about a matter which shall remain private here,
but I indeed rang and spoke to him about it, at length for about 40 mins.
I was hoping for a well balanced, rounded and fair type of fellow. Instead
I found him to be unprofessional, damaging, nonchalant, ignorant, self indulged
and insincere. He was upset that I challenged him on integrity and therefore
the integrity of his site. I suppose he did not like that. I did not want
to play his game, so I was shut out. I wished to maintain my values and principles
in a world where boundaries are important to survival."
PRIOR REPORT: TBD Lies, Slander & Dishonesty Continue
Why should we expect any honestly from the mad dog ?
tbd@bigdoggie.net is his address if
you want to express your views
dave@davephx.com is my address if you
want to express your views
It has long been known that TBD has an agenda and it certainly isn't honesty and integrity for the industry. I have documented over the years all this dogs tricks. Most recently he signed an exclusive banner ad agreement with the site at least in Phoenix most known for its scams and rip-offs, and told the owner of an honest board no one but the known as a scam board can buy advertising space.
The mad dog has now blocked me from all TBD sites. In an E-mail to me, he continues to show how absolutely insane he is in his thinking.
This latest problem started after I posted on the Toronto Canada and National TBD board about the huge escort agency bust bust in Toronto with a big information and discussion article I wrote about it being due to under aged girls not about legal (in Canada) prostitution as some of the news headlines were suggesting. Obviously TBD is upset about the Phoenix private list, but what this has to do with sharing information about Toronto and linking to http://www.sexworktoronto.com only his crazed mind could know.
I have never used TBD to promote the Phoenix private list and I have warned people not to even ask questions about it on TBD- Phoenix.
On the Toronto board a number of Toronto folks were very upset on how TBD
slandered me on TBD-Toronto as you can see by posts, if they haven't been
deleted yet by TBD, as some earlier posts were. Even the TBD-Toronto
Moderator seems bewildered and made it clear the slander and editing my post
about the Toronto bust was not his doing.
Believe it or not here is what TBD said in an E-mail to me:
"For whatever reason you chose to offer a pay-for service. That pay-for service
is linked to whatever else you do--free web site or not. Its only a matter
of time before you decide you can't really make a living doing only Phoenix
reviews and you will branch out into Toronto and other Canadian cities. You
are only posting links to your site to build your name recognition so that
you can make a commercial venture out of it."
"Continually trying to scam free advertising for yourself is really morally
bankrupt isn't it? The only reason you post anything is so that you can insert
your link to your website. Any idiot realizes that. How you can twist that
in to me lying is way beyond what any sane mind could comprehend."
This is so silly it hardly needs my comment. As everyone knows, I have no
commercial interest in any website. I have shared information seeking honestly
and integrity in the industry on my websites since 1997. The only reason the
Phoenix Private List went pay is after 6+ years of providing it free and 812
members, the time required simply became overwhelming and took substantial
time away from me earning a living. I have no intention of doing anything
commercial whatsoever in Canada, or any other city. To me it is just "insane"
he should even try and argue that, but he has never been truthful and he is
just trying to spin it based on totally false, dreamed up fantasies of TBD.
Documented Details
Now TBD is slandering me all over the boards with obvious lies...again... as in the past. While some of this seems to be his personal resentment again against of my personal beliefs in honesty and integrity others have had similar problems with him over the years. Instead of the E-mails that just rant on and on he sends me, I have carefully documented his malicious, outrageous acts over the years, and present them for anyone that is interested. Sadly his board dominates in the U.S. Too bad we don't have honest people running the TBD board. I had tried to have a gentlemanly discussion in private E-mail with him over the years, but to no avail. He just continues his lies and slander and has no interest in any facts that get in the way of his agenda.
FOR EXAMPLE
There is a very important developing new story being reported all over Canada.
I posted this message on three TBD boards:
Headlines in Newspapers Across Canada:
Toronto police break up underage prostitution ring (Correct)
or
Police bust 'Canada's largest prostitution ring' (Sensationalized since is
not about prostitution itself)
For complete info see update of 4/7/02 near top of
http://www.sexworktoronto.com
Note: Private adult prostitution is legal in Canada, as in most of the
world except the U.S.
TBD replaced my text with:
Subject: [edited - lonks to another pay-for service]
[Just another attempt by an unscrupulous person to garner free advertising
for his efforts. An honest person would ahve just linked to a newspaper article
instead of directing it to his personal web site. Clear violation of our Terms
& Conditions] (misspellings are his since I copied and pasted
it. )
TBD Terms & Conditions say:
12.) No postings or advertisement postings are allowed for ANY other message
boards or message board sites.
None of my sites are message board sites, and they never will be.
Shortly after I pointed out his own Terms and Conditions he seems to have changed them. But they still don't seem to apply to my information sites. Now Terms & Conditions say:
12.) No postings or advertisement postings are allowed for ANY other message boards or message board sites, ANY commercial or free escort advertisement websites, ANY other individuals, commercial services (web design, web hosting, photography, drivers, or other related services) or companies. Banner ad space is available for any of these listed, please see "Ad Rates & Contact" page.
Of course the comment about banner space seems silly since at least in Phoenix the only banner space allowed is for one well known scam advertiser with fake pictures etc.
On TBD- Toronto Sasha Jones a well known respected provider replies:
"Was the edit on Dave's post really necessary? He has posted here for quite
some time and has always included a link to his site. Which I believe is probably
a great resource to many of TBD's members. Not only is his site useful but
it is also quite informative. Not to mention the post he made which included
the link was also of great relevance to the area. I don't think it was spam
at all."
TBD deleted Sasha's post
Then by Sheik , Mon, Apr 08, 2002,
"Actually Dave's articles are enjoyed and he does promote TBD as a resource
for info..."
Ironically TBD Toronto has a new moderator who had posted encouraging more
folks to post, which prompted this response:
-----
Not a good start Toronto Mod
Re: Police bust 'Canada's largest prostitution ring' -- davephx
Posted by Methos , Tue, Apr 09, 2002, 14:24:45
Dave is a long time & well known poster, and your tone is pretty heavy handed,
IMO. There are so few posts in here as it is, you may not want to discourage
those who do.
-----
posted by Sasha Jones , Tue, Apr 09, 2002, 17:00:29
Not sure if it was the Toronto Mods fault on this one.
I posted a very polite response to this post a couple of days ago and it was
removed as well. I basically stated that Daves posts have been welcomed here
for quite some time and didn't see a valid reason for editing/removing them.
His site is very informative and it likely a great resources for many of TBD's
readers both in the US and Canada.
Anyway Dave also posted this in the General Board and it was edited in the
same fashion, that is why I thought it should be pointed out that it may not
have been the Toronto Mod's decision to edit.
-----
I assume these posts will also be deleted. TBD posted the same lie,
replacing my text with his slander on all 3 TBD boards where I thought the
issue was relevant. I am very well known on two of the boards.
It appears TBD has blocked my access to all TBD boards so only his favored
posters following his agenda will be heard from.
TBD knows I have no pay sites, nothing to promote other than honestly and
integrity. Yes, I have recently had to go to a subscription basis for
the Phoenix Private E-mail list but that has nothing whatsoever to do with
Toronto, nor any of my websites. I have never had a pay site as he well
knows. But as usual honest facts isn't what he is interested in.
www.sexwork.com ,
www.sexworktoronto.com ,
www.touchangels.com , and
www.libchrist.com have helped thousands
of people with honest information, have no porn and have never and will never
be pay sites.
My article is far more than just the many differing news accounts. There
is no violation in Terms & Conditions to reference a non pay site link that
is not a competing discussion board. sexworktoronto.com obviously is neither
The whole point of the article if you read it (full url is
http://www.sexworktoronto.com/Toronto/other/bust.html
) was to point out the difference between sensational reporting of it
being about prostitution and the real issue of underaged. The whole url would
take more than one line so probably would be messed up if all posted so I
referenced the link on the top of www.sexworktoronto.com.
I quoted the most complete news article and what I consider important comments
by Canadians on other public boards about the busts. I felt it was important
to point out the difference between legal prostitution in Canada vs. underaged
workers. But some of the headlines in news articles across Canada make it
sound more of a prostitution issue.
I realize TBD is very upset that the Phoenix Private List detracts from TBD's
Phoenix board and its sponsorship by one of the well known scam sites in Phoenix
which is the exclusive advertiser on TBD-Phoenix. But just when does
www.sexworktoronto.com or any
of my websites have to do with this issue? Clearly as in the past, honesty
and integrity is not what TBD is about but he as in the past attacks me in
whatever slime way he can.
I guess I should have expected as much from TBD. For years he has slandered,
lied and done everything he can to falsely attack me. When I have tried to
respond and point out facts vs. his fantasies about me, all he does is go
into rants instead of any ability for a honest, respectful discussion of issues
like I tried to do. Sadly most newcomers come to TBD boards without realizing
his history, the antics and his personal agenda which has been very clear
over the years.
Fortunately in Canada there are many more honest board sponsors which is why
TBD is not as widely used in Canada as in the U.S.
I have no desire to waste time in silly childish pranks, but TBD is at it again as a child who plays in a playpen and prevents good information from his own boards. Therefore, I simply publish the facts as a public service to expose the real TBD and his antics. I have for many years enjoyed helping and directing newcomers and answering questions honestly on his boards, which dominate the U.S. I even deleted the prior facts from 1999-2000 when he played his childish pranks, but now I share them again if any one is interested in truth and honestly on the boards.
3/28/02 TBD "Recommends" Eros- Well known for Cash-n-Dash and scam ads
From public post:
What's up with the new Eros banner on here? That is the last place people
from here go....let alone recommend
A reply:
I talked to Charles (TBD himself) today and he informed me that TBD is only
accepting banners from Eros, it seems TBD and Eros have teamed up together
and TBD will not have any other escort directory sites (ie. Exotics,CityVibe
etc) banners but Eros on his site from now on. I guess TBD doesn't mind sending
his traffic to a well known C-N-D, B-N-S, bullshit stock photo escort directory
site.
I have been watching TBD go down hill in usefulness the last few months and
this alliance surely wont help TBD's credibility among his visitors, and one
has to wonder what the hell a site that was originally created to warn people
of C-N-D, B-N-S ads is doing exclusively sending its traffic to a site that
has more C-N-D, B-N-S ads than real ads. I guess he doesn't mind letting his
visitors fall victim to the many rip-offs on Eros. If you agree with me do
me a favor and let TBD know,
Another reply:
Oh I agree none of us would go to EROS. It is a site mostly for newbies and,
they get to learn their lessons the hard way we all did at first. the EROS
verified photos are a joke. They only verify that yes it is indeed a photo.
Dave notes there are some honest providers on Eros. Some say they mostly get
out of town folks from Eros. Most Phoenix people avoid Eros, with the many
scams. But again some of Phoenix's finest also have listings on Eros. The
poor traveler however has to be lucky to find the good honest ones among the
scams.
4/21/02 On Eros - TBD's Only allowed advertiser - A Known Scam Site
Public Post on TBD- Phoenix: A fine example of Eros' incompetence
Check out Meegan on Eros- Phoenix, Look familiar? Anybody who has looked at
a Playtime, Erotica, Scottsdale Tribune, New Times, Get out should recognize
her as Phoenix Exotics model in all of our print ads over the last 4 years.
The girl in the picture was a paid model by corporate over 5 years ago and
has nothing to do with the Escort industry. The ad actually has the nerve
to say "Yes, yes this really is my photo!" What a crock of shit, another fine
example of why Eros is home of low quality.
TBD's Rant E-mail full of lies and slander when I simply answered a question
on TBD-Phoenix
Background
After 6+ years of the free Phoenix Private List with huge numbers of reviews
and information that reached 809 members it just got too time consuming.
I decided I had to end the list, or go to a subscription basis in order for
it to continue. We had overwhelmingly positive response with most folks
being so grateful for the private list and saying I should have gone to a
subscription basis years ago. But this is ONLY the PHOENIX Private E-MAIL
List, not any of my always free websites that I have spent so much time trying
to provide helpful information on over many years.
After last weeks Private list update went out I was surprised to see such a discussion on TBD asking me questions, since discussion of competing lists is against the rules. I have never used TBD to promote the private list and it is rarely mentioned on TBD.
But there were two discussion threads:
Question for Dave ---Dr Yee ( Mar 25, 06:41, 2002 )
Another Question for Dave ---Dan or Danny ( Mar 26, 09:21, 2002 )
I answered questions and follow-ups. I only responded because there were specific
questions being asked directly of me. I then receive an E-mail from
TBD. I am not surprised since he has attacked me falsely with his fantasies
many times in the past.
TBD says:
You know Dave I've seen you do a lot of questionable things but to use my
site/board to shill for your new paid venture is pretty low--even for you.
Guess this means you are selling out for the dollars. Probably OK when you
do it even after you condemn others for the same thing. *funny and sad* (Dave
wonders...when did I ever condom anyone for being pay?)
Its pretty clear now why you have made such a campaign out of trying to falsely
discredit TBD. You ahd plans all along to open your own "pay-for-info" business.
Pretty transparent itsn't it?
For someone who spouts off about ethics you certainly seem pretty bankrupt
in that area yourself. You could try being a real man and make it off your
own efforts instead of sponging off me and my site. Or is that too much for
you to handle?
I have NO problems with you running your own site and lists or whatever else.
More power to you. But you continually use/abuse my site to self-promote and
shill. And this after you made such a big brouhaha and made up thousands of
lies about me and my site. Geez.... Make it on your own---be a real man for
once.
Suppose I should be thankful because ethically bankrupt characters like you
make it so easy for a bright and honest guy like me to be successful on the
web.
Other than that I have nothing more to say to you...
Thanks,
TBD
tbd@bigdoggie.net
I posted this reply on TBD which he immediately deleted
STOP asking me questions here TBD is mad at me!
Posted by davephx , Wed, Mar 27, 2002,
I had no intention of discussing the recent event here. There were two threads
I was surprised to find:
Question for Dave ---Dr Yee ( Mar 25, 06:41, 2002 ) Another Question for Dave
---Dan or Danny ( Mar 26, 09:21, 2002 )
No they were not my shills as TBD claims in fact they were quite negative.
I answered the questions raised honestly as always. I was actually surprised
TBD didn't' just delete the thread. But instead he has written me about how
I am the scum of the earth taking advantage of TBD.
Please ask me any questions by private E-mail, Not here. This is not an open
discussion board and the rules say can't discuss other lists. I respect that
which is why I have never promoted the list here and only have responded to
specific questions directed to me which TBD is very upset about.
Dave in Phoenix
Dave adds:
IF anyone wants to write TBD about his attacks feel free:
tbd@bigdoggie.net
More of TBD's Past History of Lies and Slander Documented
If anyone wants to getting into a pissing match about ethics, I welcome you
to read my prior articles and decide for yourself. Since TBD had stopped his
censorship I do not have them linked on sexwork.com but can be viewed by going
direct: I really don't want to waste my time with another fight with the big
doggie but exposing his agenda I believe is also in the public interest.
March 2002: The Big Dog TBD is growling and biting again on TBD-Minneapolis.
An open
letter to TBD &What Many Others are Saying about the Phoenix TBD situation
TBD Lies, Slander and Censorship
TBD Senseless
Censorship Continues
More Clear
Proof of TBD's Censorship and Agenda on TBD Boards